Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 940141 times)

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2700 on: April 06, 2016, 12:56:38 am »
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How do we decide I have a glute weakness and not hamstring or quad? I would say my glutes are just fine (in terms of muscular development) however .. they're not quite as ripped as the best player in the competition who at my height and about 200-220 had absolutely no bodyfat on him and could run circles around bigger slower guys or smaller quicker ones - he'd just a beast and it's the main and chief reason i've decided on a complete 12 month overhaul of my training.
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2701 on: April 06, 2016, 03:00:46 am »
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When he gets some glutes? Wasn't he saying that he's hip thrusting 200+ for reps? Doesn't sound like lack of glute development to me.

The problem with using an exercise to gauge power.  He can't jump more than 30'' and he is incredibly slow.   Watch his dunk videos and you see a guy who has undeveloped glutes that don't fire.  Hip thrusts are a good glute activator but they use a small range of motion and the load doesn't necessarily equate to power very well.  I can get a good workout hip thrusting 225lbs or 505lbs - I have never "maxed" my hip thrust and don't need to.  One of the biggest evaluation mistakes you can make (and usually it's self evaluation where we make it) is when we assume that an athlete can do "X" so therefore that part of the body is clearly not the problem.   It usually comes from an athlete doing an isolation exercise of limited range of motion and assuming that means that muscle is not an issue.  Classic example is a slow sprinter with weak hamstrings who can do something silly like a "Natural GHR" assuming that "I don't have weak hamstrings so that can't be the issue" but not realizing that using your hamstrings as a knee flexor with your knees on the floor doesn't have much to do with hamstring power or development in hip extension during a sprint.  Watch an athlete move dynamically an locate where he has weakness rather than referring to a gym lift as evidence of anything.   


I agree with that. But you can't say he "has no glutes". You can say he isn't using the glutes that he already has at a pretty good level in terms of strength (yes, isolated movement strength, gym work strength, whatever) well in dynamic movements. That I can agree with. On the other hand, he doesn't seem too fast in ANY movement so I'm not sure it's the glutes' fault - it's either his desire to be fast (he is just "sleepy", "lazy" when he plays or whatever), or his CNS is slow.

We can test that if he agrees to film some "glute unrelated movements" dynamically (can't come up with an idea now) or that keyboard type test (where you press the spacebar as fast as you can for 10 seconds and see what kind of numbers you come with to test "quickness" or CNS speed). I know, silly tests, but they might provide some information (relevant or not).

Back to the glutes idea, I would do dynamic glute movements if I were maxent - KB swings (a ton of them, focusing on the "hip snap"), med ball tosses (focusing on the hip snap), double leg bounds, depth jumps for length etc. I know a lot of these things have a horizontal component in them in terms of hip action - if anybody has any idea about a vertical hip dynamic movement... I'm all ears. Maybe SVJs to rim with little knee travel and a lot of hip bend/hinge (like what Toddday was trying to do in his depth jumps videos).

Plus sprints. If I were as slow as maxent, I would say "fuck this, I will do sprints like crazy" and try different distances and give 110% effort on them. Not only are they great plyometric exercises but also train the hip hyperextension, the posterior chain dynamically, the calves dynamically, stiffen the Achilles etc, all the good stuff.

Obviously, all these besides playing actual aggressive ball (especially on defense, since you don't have the ball and can move freely, you can be quicker/faster defensively and you'll benefit from that type of multi-directional "plyo work").

These are what I feel are the most sensible things for maxent at this moment.

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2702 on: April 06, 2016, 03:52:04 am »
+1
When he gets some glutes? Wasn't he saying that he's hip thrusting 200+ for reps? Doesn't sound like lack of glute development to me.

The problem with using an exercise to gauge power.  He can't jump more than 30'' and he is incredibly slow.   Watch his dunk videos and you see a guy who has undeveloped glutes that don't fire.  Hip thrusts are a good glute activator but they use a small range of motion and the load doesn't necessarily equate to power very well.  I can get a good workout hip thrusting 225lbs or 505lbs - I have never "maxed" my hip thrust and don't need to.  One of the biggest evaluation mistakes you can make (and usually it's self evaluation where we make it) is when we assume that an athlete can do "X" so therefore that part of the body is clearly not the problem.   It usually comes from an athlete doing an isolation exercise of limited range of motion and assuming that means that muscle is not an issue.  Classic example is a slow sprinter with weak hamstrings who can do something silly like a "Natural GHR" assuming that "I don't have weak hamstrings so that can't be the issue" but not realizing that using your hamstrings as a knee flexor with your knees on the floor doesn't have much to do with hamstring power or development in hip extension during a sprint.  Watch an athlete move dynamically an locate where he has weakness rather than referring to a gym lift as evidence of anything.   


I agree with that. But you can't say he "has no glutes". You can say he isn't using the glutes that he already has at a pretty good level in terms of strength (yes, isolated movement strength, gym work strength, whatever) well in dynamic movements. That I can agree with. On the other hand, he doesn't seem too fast in ANY movement so I'm not sure it's the glutes' fault - it's either his desire to be fast (he is just "sleepy", "lazy" when he plays or whatever), or his CNS is slow.

We can test that if he agrees to film some "glute unrelated movements" dynamically (can't come up with an idea now) or that keyboard type test (where you press the spacebar as fast as you can for 10 seconds and see what kind of numbers you come with to test "quickness" or CNS speed). I know, silly tests, but they might provide some information (relevant or not).

Back to the glutes idea, I would do dynamic glute movements if I were maxent - KB swings (a ton of them, focusing on the "hip snap"), med ball tosses (focusing on the hip snap), double leg bounds, depth jumps for length etc. I know a lot of these things have a horizontal component in them in terms of hip action - if anybody has any idea about a vertical hip dynamic movement... I'm all ears. Maybe SVJs to rim with little knee travel and a lot of hip bend/hinge (like what Toddday was trying to do in his depth jumps videos).

Plus sprints. If I were as slow as maxent, I would say "fuck this, I will do sprints like crazy" and try different distances and give 110% effort on them. Not only are they great plyometric exercises but also train the hip hyperextension, the posterior chain dynamically, the calves dynamically, stiffen the Achilles etc, all the good stuff.

Obviously, all these besides playing actual aggressive ball (especially on defense, since you don't have the ball and can move freely, you can be quicker/faster defensively and you'll benefit from that type of multi-directional "plyo work").

These are what I feel are the most sensible things for maxent at this moment.

I agree with 99% of what you said.  I just don't find hip thrusts to actually be the best test of glute strength even in isolation.  I believe this just from empirical evidence and the only argument I can make probably isn't that satisfying - it's just that I have seen tons of athletes who are really weak somehow able to do a lot of hip thrusts with moderate weight.  The same isn't true for other compound exercises - eg if you can wide-grip bench a lot of weight your delts and chest must be strong - doesn't mean you necessarily are recruiting them dynamically -but they are developed.  Maybe it's because we can make the hip thrust really hard or really easy by where we place our feet, by how high we put out shoulders on the bench, by whether or not we truly squeeze at the top of the lift.   Point I'm making is it's really easy to cheat our way to big hip thrust numbers...

However, like you said it doesn't matter if he has some strength reserve in his glutes if he doesn't recruit his hips dynamically it won't help and you gave great suggestions for exercises that will force him too...

That said, to answer his question about how he knows if he has weak glutes or hamstring or quads I would tell you why this is my hunch. 

1) The eye test.  He hasn't posted a lot of video or pics but from what I see is an athlete with no hip pop who doesn't look like he has much glute development (simply put - small butt, no natural anterior tilt, doesn't look like a sprinter or glute dominant athlete).  Of course looks are not everything.

2) The strong and weak points.  While not spectacular his standing vertical is one of his more impressive feats.  In fact his standing vertical dunk is almost as high as his running vertical.  His vertical jumping ability is "better" than his speed.  In this I mean most people who can jump as high as him are probably faster and in fact most people who can jump within a few inches of him are probably faster.  Hamstring dominant athletes will usually be at one end of the spectrum (really fast but surprisingly bad at jumping) and glute dominant people in the middle with more speed than jumping ability but not extreme while quad-dominant athletes will be decent at jumping besides being terrible athletes dynamically.

3) His long history of being a sedentary fat male. Men who are active and playing sports their whole life figure out how to use glutes as a kid and stick with it.   Men who spend a decade sitting at a desk and then try to play sports usually have inactive weight glutes and hips.

4) His ability to "feel" exercises.  He hates med ball tosses because they only hurt his back which IMO is evidence that he doesn't use his glutes at all.  Of course your right that he might have strong glutes and just not know how to use them.  But I'm less convinced this is the problem - as Charlie Francis said - looks right flys right.  Sure there are exceptions but usually if you have strong glutes throughout the range of motion and train a dynamic skill you will learn how to use them...  Not always though...

My suggestions are similar to yours - bounding, broad jumps, etc (especially tailored to bball at the end), sprints, etc.  If his broad jump is terrible it's more evidence of a glutes issue.  Basically the video I posted is a incomplete summary of how he should be training.   Things like your speed at defensive shuffle is going to be quite glute dominant... 


maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2703 on: April 06, 2016, 03:55:49 am »
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Great stuff. If you can agree to a set of tests/diagnostics i'm more than happy to take a video doing them today or next time I train this week.
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2704 on: April 06, 2016, 05:45:33 am »
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Yeah back to the hip thrust argument - there's such a big variation into what people "consider" to be a hip thrust. I was watching LBSS's videos of his hip thrust, and he uses such short ROM. When I do the hip thrusts, I go to full hip hyperextension (I try, at least), pause there for a second or two, then go all the way down. I don't go 1 cm and then back up, I go all the way down so the plates touch the ground, and then do the exercise again. Plus sometimes I feel the exercise in the lowerback, meaning I wasn't actually using my glutes properly/I wasn't getting into posterior pelvic tilt, I was trying to "back extend" - so the completely wrong movement, and also with injury potential.

Sometimes I like to just touch the ground with the plates and go straight back up, so that I maintain continuous tension in the glutes for the entire set, sometimes I rest the barbell on the floor for a second and do the next rep (maybe I'm repositioning my back on the bench etc). But there's a tremendous amount of difference in TUT (or the total amount of time it takes me to do say 5 reps) vs what I've seen around here, with 1-inch humps of the bar being called "hip thrusts". Certainly a lot less time spent per set for the same amount of reps, a lot less stretching of the glutes, a lot less range of motion etc.

This makes me think about chinups or squats or whatever - when you ask someone how many chinups they do, they might say "15". When you tell them to show you how they do them, they do 2 inch chinups (similar to 1/4 - 1/8 squats that you see the regular gym idiot do).

So yeah, it seems that we have completely different understanding of what a properly performed hip thrust is. And yeah, there's definitely variation going on depending on how you position yourself.

I remember doing the hip thrusts with Olympic lifting shoes on (I think LBSS did so, too) and they felt totally different than the same exercise without OL shoes on. I even reported that to Bret Contreras some time ago (I think he said he hasn't studied the difference).

Also, you can kind of push through the "toes" (or the front part of the foot) or through the heels. Personally, I feel weird pushing through the heels. You can also kind of pull the ground back with your feet while in that position (although that would activate the hamstrings as knee flexors, especially when the bar is resting on the floor and the hamstrings are not in active insufficiency).

So I agree, there's a ton of stuff going on with the hip thrust. I think properly performed KB swings would do a lot of good for maxent, as would depth jumps for height with a target straight overhead (this will force him to hip extend a bit more, IMO, than a regular DJ that for him would be so quad-dominant).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 05:47:35 am by Raptor »

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2705 on: April 06, 2016, 10:28:42 am »
+1
I'll try to post more video in the coming weeks .. for you guys to check your hunches. Will be interesting to see if it matches up with the preconceptions!

Tonight i went to the rec center just to shoot around for bout 30min before the rec league games start. And i was warming up doing some dunks .. guess i must have looked ok cause this guy approached me and asked if i would play for them.. so naturally i said hell yes .. and we won. Todday mentioned Rodman above a few posts ago, it may have been in my subconscious cause i tried to play the best defence and rebounding game off my life. Went scoreless .. in true rodman fashion. Took a video during warming up

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmPvA81WPak" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmPvA81WPak</a>

lighting sucks but i didnt run any filter on it to make it easier to view. Also dont quote it cause im gna delete it to protect the privacy of the other ppl in the vid .. dont kno them but it's not cool to put it online without their permission .. i know
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2706 on: April 06, 2016, 10:35:22 am »
+1
BS 2x127.5(LPR), 1x135(LPR!!), 4x117.5
Bball game

BW: 172
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2707 on: April 06, 2016, 12:49:44 pm »
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Maybe box squats/seated-jumps would be a good idea as hip dominant exercises for you, too.

maxent

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chasing athleticism
« Reply #2708 on: April 08, 2016, 07:19:44 am »
+3
BS 6x70 (warmup PR; paused 135) 6x110(warmup PR; p135), 2x130 (LPR; warmup), 6x112.5(first set LPR), 6x117.5 (LPR)
BCR 12x150, 8x190
JS 8x110 (warmup PR), 8x150 (warmup PR), 8x180 (=PR; maintenance)
PP 6x62.5(PR; warmup PR too!), 6x65(PR), 7x62.5(PR)
BP 6x70 (warmp PR), 1x90
DJ 2x6x20"
MedBThr 6x5kg, 6x10kg, 6x5kg (new exercise!!; see notes)

BW: 80kg / 176.5lb

Notes:
The first workout done with my new barbell and 2x25kg plates. What a difference it made from old, bent, rusty, cheap barbell. I could actually save lifts that i would normally have failed. it feels way better out of the bottom .. world of difference. Probably got my first decent erectors workout in a long time. No fails either in a day i wasn't feeling very fresh or strong, to get a string of PRs is a great sign. This is the setup i'll use to build and achieve my 180kg squat goal within 12 months.

Apparently a decent barbell also helps with overhead lifts .. i got a push press PR straight up. Time to get strong.

I started medicine ball throws at the behest of T0ddday! Have set myself some initial goals based on the soccer field configuration and my first throws done there today:


For the record i'm about 30cm off on the 10kg goal and ~20m off on the 6kg goal.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 10:25:27 am by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2709 on: April 08, 2016, 12:31:22 pm »
+2
Some observations from today's medball workout: It does NOT potentiate my jumps as Todday's ones does. However a few years ago i did use banded plate swings to potentiate myself to jump higher. I never attempted to reproduce that, because i never needed to do icing on the cake type potentiating before .. but may revisit them if i am properly peaking my vertical at some point.

 If the utility of medball throws or swings for training for athleticism is determined by potentiating ability of the exercise, then Raptor might be right that swings are the way to go for me. But no reason i can't do both. Anyway, for now im happy to include throws. I don't have a pair of KBs at home, the gym has them but not sure i will continue my membership there. Still, while I have access, i may as well do them.

Finally, with my new barbell im able to do olympic lifts better .. so im gna try to get my hang powerclean over 100kg. That wont hurt my athleticism either. And i've also adopted the suggested goal of a 100kg push press.. that should be do-able within the 12-month timeframe also. However, when your only benching 100kg i dont think i have enough upper body strength to lock out 100kg overhead .. but no reason i can't get my bench up to somewhere semi-respectable like 115kg or so by then. Especially with the nicer bar which seems to be more balanced unlike the old bent one which forced me to lift asymmetrically.

Any other weightroom goals you guys can suggest? I'm summarising them below:

RDL - 10x200kg
BHT - 10x230kg
Backsquat - 180kg (>2xbw)
BP - 115-125kg
HPC - 115-120kg
PP - 100kg
OHP - 90kg??

And i think that's the lot. Can't think of any others at the moment that i'd care to set a goal on. RDLs and BHTs i should be able to achieve in a few weeks time. Backsquat will take time and ofcourse upper body lifts will take the longest.

Outside the weight room I have the following goals:
Medball throw (see above for 6kg and 10kg medball goals respectively relative to football field markings)
Weighted dunk @ 115kg
Decent 60m sprint time (concrete numbers??)
Windmill dunks, arm in rim / elbow hang dunks etc (dreaming)
suggest any more that would be useful to me
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:44:50 pm by maxent »
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2710 on: April 08, 2016, 04:27:58 pm »
0
I just bought a 5 kg med ball and a 24 kg kettlebell with less than 100 euros, years ago. I just paid 100 euros for two items I'll basically have forever, so a great investment.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2711 on: April 09, 2016, 11:43:53 pm »
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A possible injury i picked up from last time. When I unracked 190kg for calf raises last time, i was able to take it out of the rack just fine. But my new bar is fairly whippy (28mm vs 30mm of the old one) .. and ... of course racking the bar the plates were lower and i struggled to return the bar, stretched/strained my right shoulder getting it back on the rack. That sucks. The pins below are too low .. and evidently the normal ones are now too high, so next time if i ever have more than 150kg on the bar, just make sure the pins are set lower to account for bar whip.
I just bought a 5 kg med ball and a 24 kg kettlebell with less than 100 euros, years ago. I just paid 100 euros for two items I'll basically have forever, so a great investment.

I will consider it, if it shows utility beyond a few weeks use! I'm just unsure about investing in a single KB when like dumbells you may need more one pair and it's unclear which weight to go with. Thanks for the recommendation though, i'll try them today and see how it goes.

I used my TENS unit around my left hip yeterday.. and the niggles ive felt all week have disappeared overnight. That's cool. I love this thing, acole you're the man for suggesting it! I use it on my lower back regularly and im good there too  :headbang:

« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 12:17:59 am by maxent »
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2712 on: April 10, 2016, 05:00:45 am »
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I just bought a 5 kg med ball and a 24 kg kettlebell with less than 100 euros, years ago. I just paid 100 euros for two items I'll basically have forever, so a great investment.

Ehhh I hope it is forever.  We had a 12lb medicine ball crack in half on us at practice today.  Never been tossed on hard surfaces only turf, grass and sand and the ball split down the middle on a far toss...

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2713 on: April 10, 2016, 05:05:38 am »
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Some observations from today's medball workout: It does NOT potentiate my jumps as Todday's ones does. However a few years ago i did use banded plate swings to potentiate myself to jump higher. I never attempted to reproduce that, because i never needed to do icing on the cake type potentiating before .. but may revisit them if i am properly peaking my vertical at some point.

 If the utility of medball throws or swings for training for athleticism is determined by potentiating ability of the exercise, then Raptor might be right that swings are the way to go for me. But no reason i can't do both. Anyway, for now im happy to include throws. I don't have a pair of KBs at home, the gym has them but not sure i will continue my membership there. Still, while I have access, i may as well do them.

Finally, with my new barbell im able to do olympic lifts better .. so im gna try to get my hang powerclean over 100kg. That wont hurt my athleticism either. And i've also adopted the suggested goal of a 100kg push press.. that should be do-able within the 12-month timeframe also. However, when your only benching 100kg i dont think i have enough upper body strength to lock out 100kg overhead .. but no reason i can't get my bench up to somewhere semi-respectable like 115kg or so by then. Especially with the nicer bar which seems to be more balanced unlike the old bent one which forced me to lift asymmetrically.

Any other weightroom goals you guys can suggest? I'm summarising them below:

RDL - 10x200kg
BHT - 10x230kg
Backsquat - 180kg (>2xbw)
BP - 115-125kg
HPC - 115-120kg
PP - 100kg
OHP - 90kg??

And i think that's the lot. Can't think of any others at the moment that i'd care to set a goal on. RDLs and BHTs i should be able to achieve in a few weeks time. Backsquat will take time and ofcourse upper body lifts will take the longest.

Outside the weight room I have the following goals:
Medball throw (see above for 6kg and 10kg medball goals respectively relative to football field markings)
Weighted dunk @ 115kg
Decent 60m sprint time (concrete numbers??)
Windmill dunks, arm in rim / elbow hang dunks etc (dreaming)
suggest any more that would be useful to me

As far as potentiation goes - do not judge an exercise by the ability of it to potentiate your ability.  Judge the athlete on his ability to obtain potenitation.  That said band work will always supply potentiation easiest simply because it's difficultly increases at the end range of motion.  Consider barbell weighted squats vs unweighted heavy band squats.   The weighted squat must be slowed as you reach lockout (unless your doing a jump squat) so motor units have to turn on at reversal and then turn off near the top.   If bands are used instead of weights then the load increases toward the top and motor unit have to stay on or even turn on near the top of the range of motion just like how a jump requires you to turn on motor units as you accelerate off the floor.  That doesn't mean barbell squats are inferior to band squats or do not have their place in your training - just means it's not as easy to get a potentiation effect. 

I put this in acoles journal but if you are looking for other goals outside of weightroom fill out this list of abilities and you can get started on movement efficiency in a big way:

For the one footed bounds start with front foot at take off line and back foot behind it, do not run in with speed but do not do a one footed take off either.  For sprint times take a video with any timing tool and film from 1st movement till chest past marker.  If you have FAT times you can subtract 0.2 and list those as well.  If you don't have any experience with it then try and and test yourself:

Standing Vertical Jump
Double-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Single-Leg Running Vertical Jump
Standing Broad Jump
Three Consecutive Broad Jumps
Five Single Leg Left Leg Bounds
Five Single Leg Right Leg Bounds
Five Alternating Leg Bounds
Forty Yard Dash
60 meter sprint
100 meter sprint
200 meter sprint
Flying 30 meter sprint
Full Back Squat
Parallel Back Squat
Barbell Bench Press
Standing Barbell Push Press
Barbell Deadlift
Strict Overhead Pullups till Failure
Pushups Completed in 30 seconds
Bodyweight Leg Raises till failure

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2714 on: April 10, 2016, 06:31:54 am »
0
I just bought a 5 kg med ball and a 24 kg kettlebell with less than 100 euros, years ago. I just paid 100 euros for two items I'll basically have forever, so a great investment.

Ehhh I hope it is forever.  We had a 12lb medicine ball crack in half on us at practice today.  Never been tossed on hard surfaces only turf, grass and sand and the ball split down the middle on a far toss...

It's a Kettler ball, pretty sturdy.

This reminds of an incident with another med ball, a yellow, 3 kg medball that we took to the track back in ~2010 or so. We were tossing it up etc and it used to make this weird sound when it hit the ground.

At one point, we toss it up, it hits the ground and it explodes, and water with some sort of soap pours out of it. We laughed like crazy for 10 minutes when that happened.