Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 939786 times)

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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3720 on: May 12, 2017, 07:28:29 pm »
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Work on a drop step where you don't actually face up completely.  This requires the dunk to have a bit of turn, so it's a drop step spin and the dunk has about a 80 degree spin in it.  This allows you to protect the ball and even use your lead hand to fight off the defender (and even push off slightly for a boost).  If you have a trainer parter it's best to practice w them - practice your spin, gather, protect and push off w your lead arm on their shoulder... hard to get this perfect but when you do you can get truly nasty dunks...

Sounds v. interesting!!! When I practiced a spin into a drop step I found I had to do the spin real slow to get good groove into the plant for a jump. But I will practice what you've described, it seems subtly different from that. I find hte biggest challenge is not breaking the rules (travelling) while setting up for the dunk.

This is exactly why you don't want to do the spin move slow!  If you execute it quickly and get a dunk nobody will notice your traveling...  There is sort of an unwritten rule here that if a short guy drop steps on somebody.... nobody dares call travel...  The only leagues that do are the same ones which will give you a technical foul for dunking - you don't want to play in those leagues anyway...

lol .. ok this is a game changer. does it help or nah if you receive the entry pass into the post into a jump stop in selling the travel. i dont think i pass for short in our leagues very much, sometimes but not often. i think i get none of hte benefit of the doubt from refs for being 'big' tho im usually and probably one of the lightest on the court .. smh. for now..

Well you don't have to be the lightest guy on the court lol.

I think as far as selling the travel a bit - it comes down to personal preference and ability. 

For me I can spin really quickly from left to right - if I take a "crab dribble" and slip in an extra step to rise up and dunk the ball NOBODY notices.   Another easy time to drop step dunk is off a rebound - very hard to see if you actually traveling when you grab the rebound, bounce it once, take a couple steps and dunk.   

I think it's mostly about small spaces.   I have gotten *one* dunk in my life that I can remember in an actual competitive game where I drove past my man from the three point line, accelerated to the hoop and dunked the ball.  It was a day I felt really bouncy and I was in denver (maybe altitude lol?).   Besides, that I just can't get my steps right when I build up that much speed - I often "feel" high enough to dunk but when I actually go for it it's really likely I will do an obvious travel.   The solutions to this are (a) dunk with my left hand and (b) use small spaces to dunk in games - cutting baseline, drop steps, etc.  They allow you to have a step pattern drilled and they allow you to be a little more fast and loose with the traveling rules IMO.   

While I am admitting that what I am advising is almost surely a travel.... and I have been very likely guilty of this crime myself....  I hold out a tiny benefit of the doubt that maybe it's not really.... I mean who is to say when your steps begin on a gather, corralling a rebound, receiving a pass, etc...    It's not just getting away with cheating - it's relying on ambiguity.   On the other hand if you drive by your man down the key and blow by him EVERYONE can see that third step you took to show off and dunk and they will call it....

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3721 on: May 12, 2017, 07:36:11 pm »
+1


On the same page! Will help my post play a ton not having wiry arms. Idk why I never stopped to reconsider the 'train the biggest muscles' back/legs myth but someone with my build can def put on 2.5kg of mass on there and i plan to do just that.

Is that a myth? Not sure how much functional use you can get out of slightly bigger arms since arm muscles are proportionally way smaller than leg and torso muscles. For basketball specifically though. I don't really know the rules of basketball but in frisbee you can't stiff arm people and can only box out with your body so that takes out a lot of the benefit of having larger arms. Don't really see larger arms carrying over to athleticism either.

Really curious to see thoughts on this because I don't do lifting for arms except shoulders but it would be a thing to throw in occasionally if it does carry over to sport. Also, do people do any sort of more low-rep strength/fiber recruitment lifting for arms? My buddy who's a bodybuilding coach said people generally don't do that because the muscles are smaller and tear easier

IMO he is conflating upper body strength with muscle mass.   

Upper body strength in basketball is real.  But it's not about adding 2.5kg to the arms.  Anecdotally Tim Duncan was referred to as far physically stronger than dwight howard.   Now some of that could be toughness, some of it could be core and leg strength masquerading as upper body strength, etc - but the point is a well timed quick "push'" from a guy like Tim Duncan or even Chris Paul will be shockingly forceful.  Some of these guys are really strong and you are not going to achieve that functional strength just doing squats.   However, you probably aren't going to get it from doing bicep curls either.   It's just like how some boxers are knock out artists and some go the distance every time... Also some look buff and some don't.

I don't know about frisbee but I would bet that in most sports with any contact (basketball, frisbee, etc) you are cutting yourself short if you completely neglect all upper body training in favor of squats.   There is a benefit to expressing strength with your upper body and you can improve this in the weight room.  Don't know if you arms need to get 2.5kg** bigger though. 

** I also don't know where that number comes at all.... The average entire 160lb mans arm weighs less than 10 pounds.  That's the entire arm.  Adding over 5lbs to your arm would make them comically big unless you also add about 50lbs to your body which we know entropy is averse to doing...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 07:47:18 pm by T0ddday »

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3722 on: May 15, 2017, 11:17:01 pm »
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Speaking of adding 2.5kg haha. I just came back from the weekend of my bro's wedding and i stepped off the scale this morning at 82.0kg .. yikes! I managed to strain my abz while laughing from watching someone fall on the dance floor. So karma. But hopefully i can train with it no probs. I want to thank Todday for opening my eyes about the travel being more of a guideline to manipulate to my advantage than some sacrosanct firm rule. yea I might get called for a travel but if it ends in a dunk does it matter? I need to start rethinking my approach given the new information ive got in the last coupla posts.

Could dwell on how ive set myself back training/body comp wise the last week or two but instead im just gna go and train hard and see where it goes in a while
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maxent

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« Reply #3723 on: May 16, 2017, 05:53:55 am »
+2
Bodyweight: 82kg
Activity:
Misc:

BP 2x3x90(PR), 2x2x90

BP2 1x90
Paused BP 3x5x80(PR)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 08:33:55 am by maxent »
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Mikey

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3724 on: May 16, 2017, 08:44:25 am »
+1
You'll be repping 2 plates on the bench in no time :headbang:
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3725 on: May 16, 2017, 09:26:42 am »
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You'll be repping 2 plates on the bench in no time :headbang:

That would be amazing. Seriously dedicating myself to upper body now.
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3726 on: May 16, 2017, 10:17:43 am »
+3
You'll be repping 2 plates on the bench in no time :headbang:

That would be amazing. Seriously dedicating myself to upper body now.

In all seriousness this is closer to the mindset you should take.  Right now you have an over obsessive mindset lower body strength - (eg thinking that you MUST add X kg to your squat etc) and a strange mass-based approach to upper body work. 

From your journal it appears your a basketball player first - your second love is strength training.   For lower body weightlifting realize that your build is highly influential for how much strength you can express - the optimal build for basketball is actually the one that is the worst for both the squat and the benchpress.   This is why it's important for most athletes to use both the squat and a deadlift variation rather than fixate on squatting as much as someone else.   With your build you should focus on getting your squat + deadlift to a reasonable level - 4x bodyweight is pretty great for a basketball player.   After this your should focus on more specific lower body work.

While I don't love the bench press for upper body work at least it's a measurable quantity so I commend your for building it.  I'd rather see you track your heavy pullups, standing press, weighted crunch as a way to measure upper body functional strength - then focus on some challenging mobility/strength exercises - can you do 5 reps of single leg deadlift to overhead press (leg off the ground the whole time, arm in opposite hand) on both legs with 30kg? 

Your comments about upper body strength got me to do some asking about what NBA guys do.  I asked an NBA trainer and it's a lot of heavy core, standing presses (no laying bench press at all) in the offseason and then it's a ton of band and cable work all year long.   I might be guilty of making an appeal to authority fallacy (if the NBA guys do it then it MUST be right) but the thinking for the strength program there is that laying movements like bench press don't involve core/legs which is still the engine driving upper body power - and while standing presses and pulls are an improvement they still involve vertical pressing (because well - gravity) where a basketball player needs horizontal plane work.  It is a compelling argument, albeit one that sounds a bit too over-specific for me - but it could be worth a try.   What I have seen them doing is a lot of work where they have a weighted vest attached to a band which pulls them in a certain direction WHILE the doing upper body band work.   For example.  You are standing at the free throw line with a band pulling you back toward three point line, you have bands in one or both arms.  You have to take a strong plant step against resistance to the top of the circle and the perform a quick standing horizontal press with one arm while remaining strong against the band resistance...  Maybe ridiculous - maybe the secret to rebounding and post strength?     

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3727 on: May 16, 2017, 07:15:22 pm »
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With your build you should focus on getting your squat + deadlift to a reasonable level - 4x bodyweight is pretty great for a basketball player.       

 :o :o :o
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3728 on: May 16, 2017, 10:34:41 pm »
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With your build you should focus on getting your squat + deadlift to a reasonable level - 4x bodyweight is pretty great for a basketball player.       

 :o :o :o

With my build that's interesting as a goal. I think i cud walk into a gym and deadlift 140kg without training and it takes me a few weeks to get that up to 160-180kg max.. just long arms and a steady diet of squatmornings/back extensions/ make for good erector development for pulling. lets see tho, my thought is do lifts you're bad at because they hit your weakness rather than ones you're good at. the goal you've given is still the same as trying to attain a bigger squat b/c that's where im weak while the deadlift just gives me room to be worser at squatting

4x80kg = 320kg, if 50/50 split on DL/SQ id need 160/160 but say i have 140/180 .. yeah that's do-able. What do you reckon? Shud i add DLs? with back problems ive always avoided DL cos i hurt myself putting the bar down tho. Can you amend this to use RDL instead of DL please? I like RDLs better b/c i can do them without injury issues

Quote
While I don't love the bench press for upper body work at least it's a measurable quantity so I commend your for building it.  I'd rather see you track your heavy pullups, standing press, weighted crunch as a way to measure upper body functional strength - then focus on some challenging mobility/strength exercises - can you do 5 reps of single leg deadlift to overhead press (leg off the ground the whole time, arm in opposite hand) on both legs with 30kg?

yea this shud b easy. it would be more challenging with just one arm but i cant do that with 30kg. wil try today
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 10:46:01 pm by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3729 on: May 16, 2017, 10:54:59 pm »
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While I don't love the bench press for upper body work at least it's a measurable quantity so I commend your for building it.  I'd rather see you track your heavy pullups, standing press, weighted crunch as a way to measure upper body functional strength - then focus on some challenging mobility/strength exercises - can you do 5 reps of single leg deadlift to overhead press (leg off the ground the whole time, arm in opposite hand) on both legs with 30kg?

While i appreciate the discussion lower body I do think this topic is more important. Paused squatting + heavy back extensions + RDLs + sprints + calf raises seem to have solved the lower body problem for me. But where I really need advice is upper. My mobility there is poor (i move robotically above the waist), my strenght is low, my muscle mass is least in the upper body etc. So i welcome input there especially.

I am ok emphasising ohp over bp. i do like and am good at weighted chinups. But these lifts dont really move themselves. If i wanna get them going i can focus on bp and the carry over happens. i PRd my weighted chinup recently without even using the lift in ages just from BP alone. And at the time my OHP was mediocre too. So i think BP does things to me that increase overall upper body strength in a way these other 2 lifts dont. But im a terrible bencher. I have variable form, in a given set of 5 reps each one might be slightly subtly different etc. I dont have balance or symmetry and have to work hard on that. DBs help though.
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maxent

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« Reply #3730 on: May 17, 2017, 05:08:18 am »
+1
Bodyweight: 82.3kg 
Activity:
Misc:


BS 3x5x120(PR), 3x120, 5x120
Back Xtn 2x12x60, 12x35
CURL 3x5x45, 2x5x42.5
Calf Raises with barbell (120-200kg)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 07:49:15 am by maxent »
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maxent

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« Reply #3731 on: May 18, 2017, 07:13:51 am »
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Bodyweight: 83.2kg
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Yeah im getting too heavy and fat. But life sucks r/n and ive been comfort eating.. i should stop but i havent been able to.

I just want to make a note that my one leg stability is NOTICABLY improved lately. So that's good but i cant figure out what caused that. Could be anything ive added or changed recently including rdls/hill sprints on concrete/one leg calf raises/or just calf raises in gen/.

Today my hamstrings are really sore. I dont really get that from squats but i guess i did an okay amount of volume yesterday and if you add in the back extensions it's not out of the ordinary.

Will train/lift/ball tmr. If im heavy im dunking too  :ibjumping: I mean im dunking anywy but it feels more productive to dunk heavy :P
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maxent

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« Reply #3732 on: May 18, 2017, 09:58:12 pm »
+1
Bodyweight: 83.8kg
Activity:
Misc:

If I have a good training day today I will return control to my inner beast. If i have a bad one, it will continue the decline. I will have a good training day.

OHP 3x60, 6x2x60, 1Fx60
BS 2x120, 2x130(PR), 1x140(PR), 3x120, 6x110(PR)
DB OHP 10x20(PR?), 5x22.5, 7x22.5
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 08:39:39 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #3733 on: May 19, 2017, 08:38:23 am »
+1
https://streamable.com/2jiuv

i drilled some of todday's dunk advice .. any feedback?
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FP

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Re: 317
« Reply #3734 on: May 19, 2017, 05:47:32 pm »
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I just want to make a note that my one leg stability is NOTICABLY improved lately. So that's good but i cant figure out what caused that. Could be anything ive added or changed recently including rdls/hill sprints on concrete/one leg calf raises/or just calf raises in gen/.


More fat = center of mass shifts around less = better balance+stability

Can't find the source for this but I've seen it at least a few times