Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 940284 times)

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4305 on: May 15, 2018, 11:35:54 am »
+1
Was showing off about my low HR on instagram yesterday. Today i realised i was bragging about something that was probably a symptom of hypothyroid. lol. lol. At the end of the 28 day cut, im going to get a thyroid test done.
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4306 on: May 15, 2018, 08:34:49 pm »
0
BW: 89.4
Weight Vest: 5kg
Activity: 12.2
Misc: n/a
Diet Compliance: 9/9
Supplement: (200/400 CEGCG - 0800, 1200), 4g cayenne - 1400, 200mg C - 1730
Mobility: T
Skill work: F
Morning Temp: 36.1

Training day.

BS 6x120(p0), 1x152.5, 8x100
OHP 4x60, 2Fx62.5, 1x65, 0Fx67.5, 0Fx66, 1x65
Chinup 3x105(+14), 2x107(+16), 1x111(+20), 6xBW(90)
Bike - 7.5km in 20 mins @ 37%
rotational band stuff
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:47:42 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4307 on: May 15, 2018, 09:27:33 pm »
+2
Was showing off about my low HR on instagram yesterday. Today i realised i was bragging about something that was probably a symptom of hypothyroid. lol. lol. At the end of the 28 day cut, im going to get a thyroid test done.

Good to get it checked.

Do you think, with the current issues you have been experiencing that dropping 400mg of caffeine daily is going to help you out? I don't know how serious your heart condition was but this doesn't really make sense to me.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4308 on: May 15, 2018, 10:29:25 pm »
0
Was showing off about my low HR on instagram yesterday. Today i realised i was bragging about something that was probably a symptom of hypothyroid. lol. lol. At the end of the 28 day cut, im going to get a thyroid test done.

Good to get it checked.

I had a test done in feb when i went to hospital for flutter. But since then i haven't had one but it showed i was subclinical hypo. I think if i get it done again i'll be defo clinical hypo b/c the previous test was done in the evening and i wasn't completely fasted etc. Interesting to read tho that green tea has been conjured to reduce thyroid activity by about 50%. Now im not sure if that was done on humans or just animals but it might be related because in feb i'd been taking EGCG 1200mg a day for about 10 days straight prior to the week of the episode.

Quote
Do you think, with the current issues you have been experiencing that dropping 400mg of caffeine daily is going to help you out? I don't know how serious your heart condition was but this doesn't really make sense to me.

No caffeine of that amount seems to be bad for my sleep which is definitely a major reason i had flutter in feb. I tolerate 200mg a day fine, 400mg and up (600mg if i take it 3x a day) seems to cause sleep issues which sets me up for having another episode. But being fat is worse, long term. I need to get lean and then figure out how to fix my thyroid issues and then hopefully i can address the heart stuff. It's all mess.
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4309 on: May 16, 2018, 07:25:10 pm »
0
Was showing off about my low HR on instagram yesterday. Today i realised i was bragging about something that was probably a symptom of hypothyroid. lol. lol. At the end of the 28 day cut, im going to get a thyroid test done.

Good to get it checked.

I had a test done in feb when i went to hospital for flutter. But since then i haven't had one but it showed i was subclinical hypo. I think if i get it done again i'll be defo clinical hypo b/c the previous test was done in the evening and i wasn't completely fasted etc. Interesting to read tho that green tea has been conjured to reduce thyroid activity by about 50%. Now im not sure if that was done on humans or just animals but it might be related because in feb i'd been taking EGCG 1200mg a day for about 10 days straight prior to the week of the episode.

Quote
Do you think, with the current issues you have been experiencing that dropping 400mg of caffeine daily is going to help you out? I don't know how serious your heart condition was but this doesn't really make sense to me.

No caffeine of that amount seems to be bad for my sleep which is definitely a major reason i had flutter in feb. I tolerate 200mg a day fine, 400mg and up (600mg if i take it 3x a day) seems to cause sleep issues which sets me up for having another episode. But being fat is worse, long term. I need to get lean and then figure out how to fix my thyroid issues and then hopefully i can address the heart stuff. It's all mess.

There's fat and then there's fat. I doubt you're proper fat that's going to give you health issues long term though. Lean/fit and health don't always go together too well.

I tolerate caffeine really well but still have issues when taking higher doses in one hit. Had a monster energy drink the other week. 220mg in one hit and I was seeing stars. Admittedly it was in the afternoon and I'd already had 3 coffees for the day.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4310 on: May 16, 2018, 07:41:07 pm »
+1
I can't tolerate caffeine too well anymore. Think I messed myself doing those fasted + black tea runs. I was even getting a little "dizzy" after drinking coffee at work. Pretty weird.

Caffeine has wrecked my sleep but also knocked me out. Getting amp'd up on caffeine, then training hard (even a short session), then coming home and just can't stay awake/passing out.

not sure if normal.

Anyway, fu*k caffeine. Cutting dependencies feels good. Our last dependency to cut is oxygen. :/

also ya, 9.x% is solid.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4311 on: May 16, 2018, 09:13:45 pm »
0
There isn't really a benefit to taking it heavily for me.  I'll turn into a zombie, wont be able to function normally if i take it heavily (600mg/day) every day for a while. The best thing i found for caffeine was limiting to 600mg/week, 200mg per training day. But whenever ive needed to cut weight i end up taking a lot more caffeine often. When it comes to health, i definitely believe caffeine is in some way protective. But too much, like any medicine can fuck you up more than it will help.

I think in Feb i might have overdosed on green tea b/c i was taking 1200mg of EGCG for about 10 days prior to the week of. Then i went cold turkey tuesday. Weds preworkout i had caffeine and L-tyro and induced flutter.  My working theory though none of my doctor friends will buy it (lol) is that i set myself up for a perfect storm of coming off EGCG which had been suppressing my thyroid and then taking l-tyro preworkout which temporarily spiked my thyroid just enough to mess with the heart. And boom, arrythmia. But doctors say if that was the case then i wouldn't have tested sublclinical hypo on friday. So my theory kind of runs into aground there according to them.

The stimulant effects of caffeine away pretty quickly with frequent use, as you guys know well. My plan long term is to to back to 3 training sessions a week, and take 200mg caffeine on those days only. Then it works and it wont disrupt sleep. Win win.
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4312 on: May 16, 2018, 09:28:22 pm »
0
BW: 88.2
Weight Vest: n/a
Activity: 12
Misc: n/a
Diet Compliance: 10/10
Supplement: 200/400 CEGCG - 0900, 1300(with vit C), 1700 ; 4g cayenne - 1500, 2115
Mobility: T
Skill work: F
Morning Temp/HR: 36.6/63

Rest day.
Notes:
I have noticed that my resting HR seems to go down to 50-55 bpm after i take caffeine. Wonder if that's cardioprotective? But ofc it's also unusual b/c it's supposed to be a stimulant etc. Idk. But interesting. Also there is no real reason to think a low resting HR is a good thing. IF anything from what ive read, it means there is more time between beats for some weirdness to happen (eg a rogue signal going out).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 09:18:58 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4313 on: May 16, 2018, 10:08:05 pm »
+1
lower HR is generally good, until it gets too low (<= low 30's). 40's-50's is probably optimal. just means you are more efficient. too low and it means you might have desensitized it.

as for caffeine making your HR lower, not sure. it almost always makes mine higher. I really try to avoid it as much as possible now. My best races/workouts have all come without caffeine. Though, my best dunk sessions came with caffeine. I think it helps me more for sprint/explosive efforts, definitely not aerobic. I've had it completely destroy my aerobic abilities several times. So I try to avoid it now, seems like a problem.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4314 on: May 16, 2018, 10:26:27 pm »
0
lower HR is generally good, until it gets too low (<= low 30's). 40's-50's is probably optimal. just means you are more efficient. too low and it means you might have desensitized it.

That's not true bro. Not in general re health. Endurance athletes having low resting HRs but this does not make them healthier, for example when it comes to the heart, if anything it predisposes them to biochemically signalling problems like arrythmias than the general population. The risk goes up b/c the time between heart beats is longer, then errant signals that arise somewhere else (not from the natural pacemaker) can mess with the normal beating of the heart. But if your HR is more normal, then there is less of an opportunity for that to happen b/c the normal signal will come more often. That's how i understood it. Also low HR can be a sign of underactive thyroid (i think in my case this is part of it).

Quote
as for caffeine making your HR lower, not sure. it almost always makes mine higher. I really try to avoid it as much as possible now. My best races/workouts have all come without caffeine. Though, my best dunk sessions came with caffeine. I think it helps me more for sprint/explosive efforts, definitely not aerobic. I've had it completely destroy my aerobic abilities several times. So I try to avoid it now, seems like a problem.

If you rarely consume caffeine and then you have once in a while  then i can expect it to increase HR. But if you have it regularly, maybe b/c it makes your heart work more efficiently too (thus lower resting HR?). Im not sure but ive noticed it decreases mine. I think your observations are explained by being more sensitive to caffeine that it reduces performance with too large a dose? smaller dose prob wud help performance while you're not sensitised to it
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:30:54 pm by maxent »
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adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4315 on: May 16, 2018, 11:40:26 pm »
+1
lower HR is generally good, until it gets too low (<= low 30's). 40's-50's is probably optimal. just means you are more efficient. too low and it means you might have desensitized it.

That's not true bro. Not in general re health. Endurance athletes having low resting HRs but this does not make them healthier, for example when it comes to the heart, if anything it predisposes them to biochemically signalling problems like arrythmias than the general population. The risk goes up b/c the time between heart beats is longer, then errant signals that arise somewhere else (not from the natural pacemaker) can mess with the normal beating of the heart. But if your HR is more normal, then there is less of an opportunity for that to happen b/c the normal signal will come more often. That's how i understood it. Also low HR can be a sign of underactive thyroid (i think in my case this is part of it).

so, if you are a dedicated athlete, you'd want your resting HR to be the same as someone who trains maybe 1/10th or 1/100th as much as you? not going to happen. Training hard, often, and for considerable time is going to lower your resting HR. It's an adaptation that's unavoidable. It implies efficiency: if the heart needed to beat more, it would -> but it doesn't, thus efficiency (less fat tissue usually, greater capillary density, greater stroke volume). The only way to keep it from happening is to stop training as hard and/or as long. It happens to boxers, futbol players, tennis players, runners, sprinters, cyclists, etc. People who train "too hard" for "too long" may actually shorten their life span, but the averages for dedicated athletes that i've seen, is greater than sedentary folks.

regarding signaling problems & arrhythmias, there isn't some trend of this happening to athletes that i'm aware of. Some dedicated athletes may drop dead "early", or suffer heart problems and such later on in life, but I don't recall it being any more likely than people who don't exercise seriously.

Also, your idea of "low" might be skewed. 50 is "low" compared to the avg of ~60. And the avg of 60 is for a barely active lifestyle. So how would 50 be low in that context?

If you move around all day like humans were meant to, there's no way your avg resting HR is going to be 60+. If it's 60+ and you are highly active, then it is probably more related to weight, or even diet. 40's-50's is optimal. < 40 is where it starts getting to be a problem. <= 30's is where it gets dangerous. But that's if it's like that pretty much every day, at rest. That's when it could indicate that those whatever-they-are-called receptors have been desensitized. If they are desensitized too long, they can become permanently damaged.

Quote
Quote
as for caffeine making your HR lower, not sure. it almost always makes mine higher. I really try to avoid it as much as possible now. My best races/workouts have all come without caffeine. Though, my best dunk sessions came with caffeine. I think it helps me more for sprint/explosive efforts, definitely not aerobic. I've had it completely destroy my aerobic abilities several times. So I try to avoid it now, seems like a problem.

If you rarely consume caffeine and then you have once in a while  then i can expect it to increase HR. But if you have it regularly, maybe b/c it makes your heart work more efficiently too (thus lower resting HR?). Im not sure but ive noticed it decreases mine. I think your observations are explained by being more sensitive to caffeine that it reduces performance with too large a dose? smaller dose prob wud help performance while you're not sensitised to it

i was sensitized to caffeine when it destroyed my stomach.

now, my GU packets with caffeine is 20-40mg, which is nothing. Even that can cause my RPE to shift negatively.

IMHO, if you're not getting caffeine from "natural sources", and instead in artificially high concentrations, probably not the best thing if you're worried about your heart. Have to be careful, especially with supplements that are full of junk.

pc!

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4316 on: May 17, 2018, 12:06:38 am »
0
so, if you are a dedicated athlete, you'd want your resting HR to be the same as someone who trains maybe 1/10th or 1/100th as much as you? not going to happen. Training hard, often, and for considerable time is going to lower your resting HR. It's an adaptation that's unavoidable. It implies efficiency: if the heart needed to beat more, it would -> but it doesn't, thus efficiency (less fat tissue usually, greater capillary density, greater stroke volume). The only way to keep it from happening is to stop training as hard and/or as long. It happens to boxers, futbol players, tennis players, runners, sprinters, cyclists, etc. People who train "too hard" for "too long" may actually shorten their life span, but the averages for dedicated athletes that i've seen, is greater than sedentary folks.

Training affects athletes hearts different ways. Efficiency is good but to a point, it can be bad if you get too efficient lol. I think for endurance type athletes the adaptations that happen are not so good for health, eg enlarged left ventricle. Another thing observed in such athletes is scarring of the heart which in addition to low resting heart rate can cause signalling problems. What happens is the scarred tissue/cells emit errant signals that propagate thru to the rest of the heart between beats and this leads to arrhythmia. The left hypertrophy causes other problems but i cant remember what they were now, it just isn't a desirable adaptation.

Normal for NBA athletes is 60. I can't find the source now but i remember reading it when i was looking into basketball and the heart. Other sports will have different values but i was suprised at 60 for what i thought was a pretty heavy aerobic sport.
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adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4317 on: May 17, 2018, 09:39:48 am »
+1
so, if you are a dedicated athlete, you'd want your resting HR to be the same as someone who trains maybe 1/10th or 1/100th as much as you? not going to happen. Training hard, often, and for considerable time is going to lower your resting HR. It's an adaptation that's unavoidable. It implies efficiency: if the heart needed to beat more, it would -> but it doesn't, thus efficiency (less fat tissue usually, greater capillary density, greater stroke volume). The only way to keep it from happening is to stop training as hard and/or as long. It happens to boxers, futbol players, tennis players, runners, sprinters, cyclists, etc. People who train "too hard" for "too long" may actually shorten their life span, but the averages for dedicated athletes that i've seen, is greater than sedentary folks.

Training affects athletes hearts different ways. Efficiency is good but to a point, it can be bad if you get too efficient lol. I think for endurance type athletes the adaptations that happen are not so good for health, eg enlarged left ventricle. Another thing observed in such athletes is scarring of the heart which in addition to low resting heart rate can cause signalling problems. What happens is the scarred tissue/cells emit errant signals that propagate thru to the rest of the heart between beats and this leads to arrhythmia. The left hypertrophy causes other problems but i cant remember what they were now, it just isn't a desirable adaptation.

Normal for NBA athletes is 60. I can't find the source now but i remember reading it when i was looking into basketball and the heart. Other sports will have different values but i was suprised at 60 for what i thought was a pretty heavy aerobic sport. And anyone who carries more mass, no matter how fit, will have a higher RHR than if they were lighter.


Every "intense" sport which mixes aerobic/anaerobic will result in heart rate lowering. And most sports have a higher aerobic component than we realize, especially in training. NBA athletes might be 60 because they are far taller than average people.

LV hypertrophy happens in every sport, to the extent that it happens with marathoners, obviously not as much.

Right like I said, too efficient is basically <= low 30's, ie 35, 32, 28 etc. That's dangerously low because it could be more of a sign of desensitization than simply efficiency.

Scarring of the heart is different than a low resting HR. Scarring may happen when endurance athletes push hard, for too long. Especially if they take PED's and such. A big component to all of this is drug use, "jacked up" supplement use etc. If you want scarring, take substances that allow you to push much harder for much longer. If you don't want scarring, listen to your body (and you'll be at less risk). Applies the same for PED/supplement use in any sport. The things we have access to now allow us to train harder more frequently, that's a problem. And for endurance athletes, it could effect their most important muscle.

Bottom line. If you drop weight, RHR lowers. If you get more fit, RHR lowers. If you don't train, RHR rises. If you gain weight, eat bad, smoke, RHR rises.

The heart, unless it's desensitized by "overtraining", beats enough as it needs to, to distribute blood throughout the body. The resting HR any of us have, is the optimal one because if it were any less, we'd be passing out, and if it were any more, we'd be jumping out of our skin. Obviously people who have experienced heart conditions/issues fall into another category.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4318 on: May 17, 2018, 07:46:29 pm »
+1
BW: 88.4
Weight Vest: 5kg
Activity: 16.1
Misc: n/a
Diet Compliance: 11/11
Supplement: 200/400 CEGCG - 0730 (w/ vit C), 1130 (with vitc, 1g fish oil, 1g cayn), 400mg EGCG (w/ vit C, 5g FO, 4g cayn) - 1140, C - 1715
Mobility: T
Skill work: F
Morning Temp/HR: 36.6/57

Training day.

BS 6x120(p0), 1x155
Paused BS 3x127(PR), 6x115(PR)
Dunks ~ 10 attempts

Notes:
Read a study saying green tea supplementation might work better with fish oil and vitamin c. Going to try it. Tried adding cayenne to my fasted stack but i think 1g is a bit much, maybe drop to 500mg and see if that feels better tmr.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 08:45:59 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4319 on: May 18, 2018, 08:46:32 pm »
+1
BW: 88.0
Weight Vest:
Activity: 12.2
Misc: n/a
Diet Compliance: 12/12
Supplement: 200/400 CEGCG (with vitc, 1g fish oil, 500mg cayenne) - 0800, 1200, 1600; 1.5g cayenne - 1400, 2000
Mobility: T
Skill work: F
Morning Temp/HR: 37.1/56

Rest day.

Notes:
Didn't have any cayenne with dinner, i think it's messing with my heart, like angina or something. Will try use sensible doses today. Interesting to note how my body temp went up this morning after eating more carbs yesterday (on a training day they go up to 190g).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:14:24 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template