Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 939681 times)

entropy · « **Reply #795 on:** March 23, 2013, 03:59:10 am »

PRs I need

FS 5x110kg (best attempt 4.5 reps to date)
FS 3x117.5kg (best attempt 2.5 reps)
BS 6x115kg (haven't attempted, but got 6x112.5 earlier this wk)

And i've got one workout left (tomorrow's). I could probably squeeze in a quick morning one on tuesday, but I don't know what my chances are of getting a PR at 5:30am. So we'll see. I also don't know if I want to find a gym there for a workout during the week for a possible 3rd workout.

The trick is picking the right scheduling for these attempts. Because i've come to find it's not possible to do them all on the same day for some reason. I can only do one FS PR and one BS PR on the same day. So my plan is for tomorrow to go for FS 5x109.5kg. If I get it, great. Then save myself for the BS PR on that same day. I'll save the final PR for tuesday.

The other option is to try to split the sunday workout into two different sessions. An AM one and a PM one. Something like this:
AM: BS 6x115 (PR)
PM: FS 3x117.5 (PR) followed by 5x110 (PR)

Perhaps that will work.

T0ddday · « **Reply #796 on:** March 23, 2013, 02:08:52 pm »

Quote from: entropy on March 22, 2013, 11:30:53 am

Quote from: LBSS on March 22, 2013, 10:19:51 am
more supplemental work for back? i know KF has made great use of rows and hypers.

Thanks. Perhaps in the future. I've added it to the TODONE list. I think I can get to my current goals without any extra non-squat assistance. But from there, say FS-5x115 will need to work on my upper back strength specially on that last rep. What I might do is add an extra rep on my backoff set. I usually do fives for those, might make those 6s. Might that work?

I'd caution against thinking like this. There are two reasons why your upper back strength is limiting you.

1) Holding heavy weight across the shoulder is causing your upper back to fatigue which causes your bar position to shift during multiple reps making the stress even worse. This is often the problem when you are doing more than 3-4 reps.

2) You are grinding a bit due to weak/fatigue quads and your instinct is to shift more weight to your hamstrings/glutes/low back and good-morning a bit... Of course you can't do this in a front-squat without dumping the bar so your upper-back has to dynamically fight the rest of your body to pull you back upright.

####

In either case I would recommend against adding assistance work specific for front squats. Remember, your goal is to jump high. If its case (1): Would upper-back work get you an extra rep or few lbs on your front squat... Maybe. But you aren't trying to break the front squat world record, you are trying to become a better athlete. For all the advantages front squats have for training athletes.... The big disadvantage is that the fatigue is almost unmanageable at higher rep ranges. If you want to do higher reps, this is what back squat is for. You just became an expert high-bar back squatter, now you can call on this ability to for your higher-rep back off work. And yes, back squatting may require some assistance work down the road... and it might be unavoidable, but it will at least hurt your ability to get your legs stronger LESS than it will in the front squat.

If it's case (2), then just let yourself get pinned if your upper-back forces you to with heavy weight. When you do grind and feel upper-back activation though.... Keep your legs firing, cue the legs to fix the problem not the other way around. Notice how when I do a high intensity front squat my back gets activated/bar slips forward and bar speed suffers.... However, I complete the rep not by having a strong back (my upper back is not very strong) but by keep my legs firing and standing up. Keep your training simple. It's working really well.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCrz52UeBY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCrz52UeBY</a>

entropy · « **Reply #797 on:** March 24, 2013, 08:49:18 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on March 23, 2013, 02:08:52 pm

Quote from: entropy on March 22, 2013, 11:30:53 am
Quote from: LBSS on March 22, 2013, 10:19:51 am
more supplemental work for back? i know KF has made great use of rows and hypers.

Thanks. Perhaps in the future. I've added it to the TODONE list. I think I can get to my current goals without any extra non-squat assistance. But from there, say FS-5x115 will need to work on my upper back strength specially on that last rep. What I might do is add an extra rep on my backoff set. I usually do fives for those, might make those 6s. Might that work?

I'd caution against thinking like this. There are two reasons why your upper back strength is limiting you.

1) Holding heavy weight across the shoulder is causing your upper back to fatigue which causes your bar position to shift during multiple reps making the stress even worse. This is often the problem when you are doing more than 3-4 reps.

2) You are grinding a bit due to weak/fatigue quads and your instinct is to shift more weight to your hamstrings/glutes/low back and good-morning a bit... Of course you can't do this in a front-squat without dumping the bar so your upper-back has to dynamically fight the rest of your body to pull you back upright.

####

In either case I would recommend against adding assistance work specific for front squats. Remember, your goal is to jump high. If its case (1): Would upper-back work get you an extra rep or few lbs on your front squat... Maybe. But you aren't trying to break the front squat world record, you are trying to become a better athlete. For all the advantages front squats have for training athletes.... The big disadvantage is that the fatigue is almost unmanageable at higher rep ranges. If you want to do higher reps, this is what back squat is for. You just became an expert high-bar back squatter, now you can call on this ability to for your higher-rep back off work. And yes, back squatting may require some assistance work down the road... and it might be unavoidable, but it will at least hurt your ability to get your legs stronger LESS than it will in the front squat.

If it's case (2), then just let yourself get pinned if your upper-back forces you to with heavy weight. When you do grind and feel upper-back activation though.... Keep your legs firing, cue the legs to fix the problem not the other way around. Notice how when I do a high intensity front squat my back gets activated/bar slips forward and bar speed suffers.... However, I complete the rep not by having a strong back (my upper back is not very strong) but by keep my legs firing and standing up. Keep your training simple. It's working really well.

Appreciate the detailed logical analysis brother. I'll try to discover which of 1 or 2 it may be. I go thru the first 3 reps without any problem, it doesn't seem heavy or challenging. The 4th one is hard enough but it looks easy on video. By the 5th rep i'm conscious of this being the last one - so I take a few breaths trying to get mentally prepared to bust out the effort. At this point i'm feeling the fatigue. I want to rack the weight but I also want the PR. I push forward. While resting before the 5th rep, I'm aware that standing there with a barbell on my shoulders is fatiguing me further so I can't wait too long. I need to stay tight but my body isn't willing to expend that effort because it's saving it for the final grind out of the hole. I go down into the hole and come up quick, and then, at around 1/4 squat position im at a dead stop, my back has rounded and I ride the bar down to the pins. I have to remind myself then that I should have anticipated my upper back rounding and worked harder to stay upright but it never occured to me during the actual rep because I was so focused on just completing the rep.

I agree with you that instead of GM it up, it's better to fail the rep. Or at least try to finish it by pushing thru the legs. That's good sense. I don't make a habit of GM my front squats, I consciously keep form honest throughout the set.

Why I have been doing 5s. I like the idea of doing 2 heavy sets of 5 and getting my volume in quickly. I did a lot of triples initially but those things are a bitch mentally, especially when I squat 3x a week and doing heavy triples frequently just kinda sucks. It's fun once in a while, i dont mind doing a set or two once a month. But 5s just seem better, they're brutally hard, they carry over to 3s and they give a great workout. I like the challenge and the economy in total sets they provide. Having said that, you've made a good case for doing higher reps with backsquat and lower reps with front squat. I think when i've got my FS fives to somewhere decent say 125kg - i'll maintain that, and then do more triples and doubles while doing the higher reps with backsquat. That's the other thing. I fail frontsquats a lot more gracefully than backsquats. Backsquat failure is kind of sudden, abrupt and precarious - i've learnt now to ride the bar down anticipating failure rather than actually failing though. Whereas with front squats I can technically fail and still safely ride the bar down without any risk of injury.

Also your video is private!

entropy · « **Reply #798 on:** March 24, 2013, 09:02:24 am »

Training
FS 4x110 (=PR, failed 5th halfway), 1x109
BS 3x115 (PR), 5x113.5 (PR), 3x113
FS 1x100, 1x110, 0x115
OHP 2x5x57.5, 6x52.5
WCU 5x80, 3x90, 2x95, 2x100, 2x95, 2x90, 2x5x85

FS notes:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrF1EWhyuG0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrF1EWhyuG0</a>

Couldn't get 5 reps of 110 again

I dunno. I think I've played this way wrong. I should have gone for 109 last wk, 109.5 earlier this week and today I could have legitimately got 110. But it's just been too long since I got a set of 5s that my body has forgotten how to do them. Ah well.

BS notes:
I didn't have 6x115 in me today. Shit's just a bit too heavy for some reason. But I got 5 of 113.5? So that means I prob would have got all 6 had I attempted 113.5 first. Prob should do that next time. I don't have 115 in me yet for whatever reason.

entropy · « **Reply #799 on:** March 25, 2013, 04:18:03 am »

Woke up with my back tweaked, usual symptoms, pain in my left glute area. I shouldn't have strained those overhead presses. Really need to keep a rep or two in the tank on that fucking lift.

T0ddday · « **Reply #800 on:** March 25, 2013, 07:45:37 am »

Quote from: entropy on March 24, 2013, 08:49:18 am

Quote from: T0ddday on March 23, 2013, 02:08:52 pm
Quote from: entropy on March 22, 2013, 11:30:53 am
Quote from: LBSS on March 22, 2013, 10:19:51 am
more supplemental work for back? i know KF has made great use of rows and hypers.

Thanks. Perhaps in the future. I've added it to the TODONE list. I think I can get to my current goals without any extra non-squat assistance. But from there, say FS-5x115 will need to work on my upper back strength specially on that last rep. What I might do is add an extra rep on my backoff set. I usually do fives for those, might make those 6s. Might that work?

I'd caution against thinking like this. There are two reasons why your upper back strength is limiting you.

1) Holding heavy weight across the shoulder is causing your upper back to fatigue which causes your bar position to shift during multiple reps making the stress even worse. This is often the problem when you are doing more than 3-4 reps.

2) You are grinding a bit due to weak/fatigue quads and your instinct is to shift more weight to your hamstrings/glutes/low back and good-morning a bit... Of course you can't do this in a front-squat without dumping the bar so your upper-back has to dynamically fight the rest of your body to pull you back upright.

####

In either case I would recommend against adding assistance work specific for front squats. Remember, your goal is to jump high. If its case (1): Would upper-back work get you an extra rep or few lbs on your front squat... Maybe. But you aren't trying to break the front squat world record, you are trying to become a better athlete. For all the advantages front squats have for training athletes.... The big disadvantage is that the fatigue is almost unmanageable at higher rep ranges. If you want to do higher reps, this is what back squat is for. You just became an expert high-bar back squatter, now you can call on this ability to for your higher-rep back off work. And yes, back squatting may require some assistance work down the road... and it might be unavoidable, but it will at least hurt your ability to get your legs stronger LESS than it will in the front squat.

If it's case (2), then just let yourself get pinned if your upper-back forces you to with heavy weight. When you do grind and feel upper-back activation though.... Keep your legs firing, cue the legs to fix the problem not the other way around. Notice how when I do a high intensity front squat my back gets activated/bar slips forward and bar speed suffers.... However, I complete the rep not by having a strong back (my upper back is not very strong) but by keep my legs firing and standing up. Keep your training simple. It's working really well.

Appreciate the detailed logical analysis brother. I'll try to discover which of 1 or 2 it may be. I go thru the first 3 reps without any problem, it doesn't seem heavy or challenging. The 4th one is hard enough but it looks easy on video. By the 5th rep i'm conscious of this being the last one - so I take a few breaths trying to get mentally prepared to bust out the effort. At this point i'm feeling the fatigue. I want to rack the weight but I also want the PR. I push forward. While resting before the 5th rep, I'm aware that standing there with a barbell on my shoulders is fatiguing me further so I can't wait too long. I need to stay tight but my body isn't willing to expend that effort because it's saving it for the final grind out of the hole. I go down into the hole and come up quick, and then, at around 1/4 squat position im at a dead stop, my back has rounded and I ride the bar down to the pins. I have to remind myself then that I should have anticipated my upper back rounding and worked harder to stay upright but it never occured to me during the actual rep because I was so focused on just completing the rep.

I agree with you that instead of GM it up, it's better to fail the rep. Or at least try to finish it by pushing thru the legs. That's good sense. I don't make a habit of GM my front squats, I consciously keep form honest throughout the set.

Why I have been doing 5s. I like the idea of doing 2 heavy sets of 5 and getting my volume in quickly. I did a lot of triples initially but those things are a bitch mentally, especially when I squat 3x a week and doing heavy triples frequently just kinda sucks. It's fun once in a while, i dont mind doing a set or two once a month. But 5s just seem better, they're brutally hard, they carry over to 3s and they give a great workout. I like the challenge and the economy in total sets they provide. Having said that, you've made a good case for doing higher reps with backsquat and lower reps with front squat. I think when i've got my FS fives to somewhere decent say 125kg - i'll maintain that, and then do more triples and doubles while doing the higher reps with backsquat. That's the other thing. I fail frontsquats a lot more gracefully than backsquats. Backsquat failure is kind of sudden, abrupt and precarious - i've learnt now to ride the bar down anticipating failure rather than actually failing though. Whereas with front squats I can technically fail and still safely ride the bar down without any risk of injury.

Also your video is private!

Fixed the link. Watched your vid, can't tell for sure by the angle but looks like the knees coming together before failure as well. I'd fix that before I'd work on upper back. Band walks. On the last rep when you back rounds a bit you can grind it if you press harder and press back a bit more through the heels. Although, if you are squatting 3x times a week, I wouldn't go for the grind reps anyway.

entropy · « **Reply #801 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:54:37 am »

Training
FS 3Fx117.5 (=PR), 5Fx109
BS 4x113.5, 3x110 (bailed 4th not technically failure)
BP 2x6x77.5

FS notes:
Maybe it's the sciatica which has made an unwanted return at the most inopportune time thanks to overhead presses, or a general burning out, or lack of sleep or just stress and shitty week but this was probably the worst front squat session i can remember. My right leg completely deserted me today, and i struggled getting any reps up at all, even warmups.

BS notes:
True 4RM on that 113.5 - fuck this shit!!!!!!!!!!!!

So that was the last training sesh. Flying out tonight for bball comp on the weekend. Would have been nicer to end with some PRs but instead i suck more now than usual, so no confidence to be had from gym. Hopefully a coupla days of rest will do me good and by game time i'll actually be stronger than ever..

entropy · « **Reply #802 on:** April 01, 2013, 03:52:49 am »

Just got back from the tournament. Man it was nuts. Here are a few things for me to keep in mind

- It's not easy guarding bigger guys who have 2-10cm of height on you and 30kg of bodyweight! I did ok boxing out on account of my leverages/squat strength but I really need to add 5-10kg of mass before next year's tournament.

- Need to become a jumpshooter

- Need to have a 40" vertical

And trainingwise, i'm going to aggressively chase a double bw frontsquat and highbar squat. Going on a slight caloric deficit (10%ish) so I can keep training hard and keep pushing my lifts up hard.

But by next year, I should be thinking in terms of a 400 pound front squat while being a lean and cut 85kg bodyweight.

My conditioning held up very well.

I need to play more ball now, i'm addicted, was nuts having a crowd cheering while you're playing an intense match, shit's like crack, i want more now.

entropy · « **Reply #803 on:** April 01, 2013, 01:13:15 pm »

Training
FS 2x90, 1x100, 1x105, 1x110, 1x112.5, 3x100, 6x60, 5x80
BP 6x75, 6x70, 6x65

FS notes:
Body forgot how to do front squats. I was pausing at the bottom instead of getting a bounce. Got the bounce from the 60kg set though. So take 6 days off and I have to start from scratch? That sucks.

BP
BP held up better, got 6x75 even though it was a RPE 10 - at least I could do it unlike fs.

So time to get back to where I was before. Then from there I'm thinking more in terms of front squatting 5x120kg and perhaps 3x127.5kg while dropping bodyweight to sub 75kg. Will have to work my ass off. I also want to get my conditioning up to a high level and then i'll put it on maintenance mode.

T0ddday · « **Reply #804 on:** April 01, 2013, 02:54:38 pm »

Quote from: entropy on April 01, 2013, 03:52:49 am

But by next year, I should be thinking in terms of a 400 pound front squat while being a lean and cut 85kg bodyweight.

I don't want to be that person putting you down... but unrealistic expectations are often the cause for failure. In a years time you want to add ~30 lbs of muscle and 150lbs to your front squat? All while playing basketball, running and jumping?

Start small. Your not a beginner anymore so gains are harder but still attainable. Think in terms of adding ~20lbs to a lift over periods of 8-12 weeks. Do this every so often and you will keep getting stronger.

entropy · « **Reply #805 on:** April 02, 2013, 01:45:40 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on April 01, 2013, 02:54:38 pm

Quote from: entropy on April 01, 2013, 03:52:49 am

But by next year, I should be thinking in terms of a 400 pound front squat while being a lean and cut 85kg bodyweight.

I don't want to be that person putting you down... but unrealistic expectations are often the cause for failure.

Lol I know I will never realistically squat 400 whether FS or HB - esp while lean -- it's a ceiling for me, if I aim for it, i might exceed all expectations than if I set a lower goal. Aim for the sky

Ditto with the BW goal, 85kg lean is nuts, 80kg lean would be amazing really.

Quote

In a years time you want to add ~30 lbs of muscle and 150lbs to your front squat? All while playing basketball, running and jumping?

I know I can frontsquat 130kg at a bodyweight of 72-73kg without a doubt. I recently worked up to ~125kg at around a fat 75kg bw. Adding 50kg to that while allowing my bodyweight to go up 13kg isn't unreasonable is it? That's around 3.85kg on the bar for every kilo of bodyweight, not too crazy.

I anticipate I can get to 140-160kg efficiently once i'm done cutting and eating at a decent caloric surplus while staying around 75-80kg. And from there it's not a stretch to think I could add 20-30kg to the bar while adding 5-10kg of bodyweight. But yea i'll be a bit fatter than I expect, and I probably wont be a lean 85kg, just a very strong one. I'll have to cut to probably 80kg or so, I can see it happening though. I'm confident about getting around 2xbw ~ 150-160kg - anything above that will be a bonus.

Quote

Start small. Your not a beginner anymore so gains are harder but still attainable. Think in terms of adding ~20lbs to a lift over periods of 8-12 weeks. Do this every so often and you will keep getting stronger.

I think I am still a beginner in many ways, at least in hypertrophy terms, ive been been on a caloric deficit for most of the time, not much opportunity to grow mass (and -> strength). When I went off the deficit, gains came easier. I know I can get to 140-150kg without any trouble just by getting off the diet. Not saying i'll squat 400 overnight, it might take a long time.

My motivation is high right now, lets see where it takes me.

entropy · « **Reply #806 on:** April 03, 2013, 03:13:47 am »

it's 3rd April today and i'm back on the diet wagon now after however long off i've had! No more eating chocolate eggs for breakfast, i've finished them all. Time to do this thing, finish what I started - get down to 159-160lb and achieve true reverse hypertrophy status. The scale said 78.3kg (!) this morning, time to get sub 75kg asap. But I don't feel or look that heavy, so I guess it's water retention or something, whatever the case, I have my goal and that's what i'm focusing on.

entropy · « **Reply #807 on:** April 03, 2013, 07:34:45 am »

Training
FS 2x90, 1x100, 1x107.5, 1x115, 3Fx110, 3x105, 5x102.5, 5x100
BS 3x90, 2x100, 4x107.5, 5x105, 6x102.5
OHP 3x50, 2x55, 2x57.5, 3x57.5, 2x60, 5x55, 5x52.5
WCU 2x7xBW
DUNKZ 30 total
BBALL practice, ~80 shots made, 40 mid range, 20 3s, 20 foul shots

FS notes:
Slowly getting back into the swing of things. I think by next workout i'll have recovered most of the lost ground. I'll prob go for and get one or two of: 3x115 (=PR), 4x110 (=PR) and 5x108.5 (=PR)!

The bar doesn't feel stupidly heavy/awkward on my shoulders like monday, felt light as a feather actually. I just haven't got the upper back endurance to rep out heavier 5s yet but that makes sense because it's been a while since I did some longer sets (which I did today) - so hopefully the 5s will come nicely real soon.

BS notes:
Went a bit conservative with weights, form was good, didn't court failure, except that last set, i wanted a 6 even though I prob should have racked it after the 5th, but the rep turned out to be easy so i'm not too concerned.

OHP notes:
New thing where i'm going to respect the OHP - done right it will make me into a beast. Done wrong, it will break my back and snap my shit up. Now keeping a rep or two in the tank, no grinders. But will not shy away from heavier sets either. I would like a BW press without grinding. When you are a light weight like me, that's only going to be around 70-75kg so it should be doable.

entropy · « **Reply #808 on:** April 03, 2013, 10:31:47 am »

Change of plan. I wont start cutting until i've got the following lifts:

FS 5x115kg, HBBS 6x120kg
BP 6x80-85kg, OHP 3x65kg, WCU 5x100kg

until then i'm not actively cutting but i'll do a shitload of conditioning for or from basketball so whatever fatloss happens will be purely incidental. Main priority is to get my lifts somewhere respectable before cutting aplomb. Then i'll just maintain them thru the cut. Easy.

entropy · « **Reply #809 on:** April 04, 2013, 03:00:50 am »

Okay, this is promising. My whole body is sore, especially back (upper-middle-lower) and hamstrings as well. This tells me 2 things, my high bar squat is pretty good for hitting my posterior chain as well. But I prob still need some kind of hamstring assistance exercise in there at some point. For now high bar squat and front squats will have to do though.

I should be patient and let the gains some come but i'm in a hurry to get to my goals quickly so I can start cutting again, just wanna be lean and ripped so I can do a proper bulk and become a beast. Patience. Relax.

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Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 939681 times)

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

T0ddday

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

chasing athleticism -RHW4D3

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

T0ddday

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

chasing athleticism -RHW4D4

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism -- W1D1 (back in the gym)

T0ddday

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

chasing athleticism -- W1D2

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

Re: chasing athleticism