Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 939864 times)

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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1395 on: December 11, 2013, 07:22:04 am »
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Yeah they're really not... that's another one of your crazy self-imposed ideas based on nothing.

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1396 on: December 11, 2013, 07:47:38 am »
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Yeah they're really not... that's another one of your crazy self-imposed ideas based on nothing.

Not nothing, guilt from association with those who do heavy belted squat mornings but can't front squat (=leg and athletic check) for shit.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1397 on: December 11, 2013, 08:22:35 am »
+1
Yeah they're really not... that's another one of your crazy self-imposed ideas based on nothing.

Not nothing, guilt from association with those who do heavy belted squat mornings but can't front squat (=leg and athletic check) for shit.

Well, then you'd be right haha

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- RSR-W1D2
« Reply #1398 on: December 11, 2013, 08:45:52 am »
0
Training
FS 1x135, 0Fx142.5
BS 0Fx145, 1x140, 1x145, 1x150, 1x140B, 1x150B, 1x155B (PR)
BS 6x3x130
BP 2x6x60
 
FS notes:
Had no plan for front squats. Was at a total whim I went for 142.5kg which i wasn't really prepared for. On a strong day it would have gone up i just cudnt get deep enough into the sticking point. Also my warmups are currently in flux so i'm focusing on that atm. Today I did 5x60, 3x100, 2x120, 1x135 and then went for 142.5 just because even though 140 wuda been better.

BS notes:
I am finding my form varies depending on the set being attempted. I have different form for volume worksets and heavy singles - which is not good cause ideally you want the same identical form. I just can't seem to work out what is the best across the board. Btw my warmup sequence went 3x100, 2x100, 1x135 and then the failure at 145. It appears I need to get 140kg first before I attempt 145. Idk, will have to think up a better warmup cause failing warmups sucks.

Experimented with a belt today. Did 140, 150, and 155 w/ a belt. I dunno how i feel about it just yet but i am liking the idea of hitting 170kg with a belt on my way to 180kg with a belt. I still have a goal for beltless -- i reckon 160kg beltless along the way is good enough, that's a 2xbw when i'm lean (9-10% ish).

So a rough plan for the next few weeks, maintain a repeatable 140kg front squat. And i think a good way to make 140kg repeatable is to PR 145kg. On backsquat work with 130kg for RSR for the first 3 weeks, no belt as usual. Make my form crisp and athletic. Then in weeks 4-6, i can start using belts as the RSR tapers off volume and into intensity. This shud take me to a 170kg belted max by RSR-W6D3. And by then my beltless max shud be 160kg. Which i am going to be pushing up steadily as a "warmup" before RSR volume sets. Do the occasional belted PR as well, just to learn the technique as I go along. Start to drop bodyweight. I want to maintain a 95kg pre-squatting weight but morning bodyweight shud be under 95kg, no need to get fatter than I already am. Also maintain and slowly build basketball fitness and keep practicing jumping regularly. Want to start sprinting too.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 09:19:51 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1399 on: December 11, 2013, 09:46:50 am »
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Btw, why have you gotten so fat, 38'' waist sounds too much. No offence , i am more or less the same fat but also much weaker ( relatively and absolutely ). I ask because you started from a pretty lean state, you were at something like 12% judging from the pics? I started this year's bulk at a much fatter state of around 15% and now ( morning dry weight ~90kg, workout wet weight ~92kg, bulk gain ~7kg in 3 months ) my morning waist is around 36''. I would expect your bulking to be much more efficient, mostly because of the original lean state as Lyle preaches. Maybe you were bloated when you measured? Or maybe it was a ( too ) dirty bulk? Mine was pretty clean FWIW.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1400 on: December 11, 2013, 10:07:18 am »
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Yeah I agree 38 is too much. Maybe it's 37 or osmething. I need to fix that. But you always had a smaller waist than me vag, even when i was lean I just got into the low 33s and high 32s but you were only an inch or so away from me, from memory even though you outweighed me by a lot.

I dont know about 12%. Pic below is the last one i took when i was lean, after the bball comp, early april.



I may have been as low as 12% maybe lower but it's hard to say for sure. I had to decide whether to continue cutting down to say 159lb (~72kg) or gain some mass even though i wasn't lean enuf. By then i was sick of cutting, it took me forever to get down to 165lb.

In the end i didn't have to make that decision because i got injured and i couldn't keep cutting while trying to heal. Nextmin i was up to 80kg. And to get back to my old PRs i started training hard but my bodyweight kept drifting up slowly. I got injured again just under 85kg. And by the time i had healed my bodyweight was over 85. And I had to decide whether to cut or get my lifts up. I started to cut but I didn't have the discipline to do it, life got in the way, i wasn't eating well and i stopped caring. Then around 87kg i decided to get strong after acole's challenge and my bodyweight went up very quickly as I ate loads to keep from stalling. Went up to 92kg quickly. Then i slowed down and gained 2 more kilo and that's where iam now, about 94kg in the mornings. But bloated (saying this i am disgusted with myself for sounding like a self delusional fatty). I reckon i cud get down to low 90kgs very quickly once i start cutting.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:32:08 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1401 on: December 11, 2013, 10:42:41 am »
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you are 12% AT MOST in that pic. probably less.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1402 on: December 11, 2013, 11:06:33 am »
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Yeah, that looks 10-12 to me. I guess the answer to my question is that your bulk was much more efficient than mine indeed. I thought you were 38'' at a wet 94kg weight, 37'' at 94kg dry already changes much. Also well said, waist circumference is not the start and end of all regarding bf, just a rough indicator. I would bet you look much leaner than the 'obese' person you describe yourself recently, or to what 38'' waist brings to our minds.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1403 on: December 12, 2013, 07:31:54 am »
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If you guys are right (and i don't know if you are or not) then i shud be around the same amount of lean-ness of 12% in the low 80s. But i dont think i've quite gained 5kg of muscle. Obviously I haven't. I'd be lucky if i've gained even a kilo of contractile muscle tissue. lean mass sure, but that's just water, 3g of water for every gram of fat etc. I'm super curious to see how my cut will go.

Btw just a note in passing, apparently when i use a belt, my hamstrings get real sore. Glutes too. Wonder if this is a good thing or not. On one hand, you can never have enough hamstring and buttock strenght. But i still want to get strong quads obviously. And my normal unbelted backsquat builds quad strength nicely. So. dunno. Not that this will change anything, my plan is the same, get thru the 3 week volume phase beltless and then use a belt for intense phase.

I really wanna be lean :( but i want a 170-180kg backsquat just as much. Blah
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1404 on: December 12, 2013, 09:33:08 am »
+1
you're a maniac. you've definitely gained more than 1kg of lean tissue in the, what, 25kg you've gained since you stopped cutting?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1405 on: December 12, 2013, 10:38:21 am »
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Yeah from ~75 kg -> ~95kg. Maybe 1-1.5kg of lean muscle. 5-10 kg of bodyfat. And a shitload of extra water weight (:s).



1 kg of lean tissue is a lot! Imagining a big piece of steak. That's a lot of meat. Realistically I don't think I would have put on say 5kg without becoming a lot more jacked. That would be a lot of muscle to pack on. I would put my ceiling at say < 2kg but perhaps more than 1kg (if i'm being optimistic even then). 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 10:42:45 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1406 on: December 12, 2013, 12:50:25 pm »
+2
If you guys are right (and i don't know if you are or not) then i shud be around the same amount of lean-ness of 12% in the low 80s. But i dont think i've quite gained 5kg of muscle. Obviously I haven't. I'd be lucky if i've gained even a kilo of contractile muscle tissue. lean mass sure, but that's just water, 3g of water for every gram of fat etc. I'm super curious to see how my cut will go.

3g of water for every gram of fat???   There is little relationship between water weight and fat.  Glycogen carries water, fat is hydrophobic, that's why it's such an efficient energy source.

Contractile muscle tissue?  Why are you making things so complicated?  Are you afraid that you are gaining sensory muscle spindle only?   Of course a gain in muscle weight doesn't occur only at the sarcomere... but approximations are necessary to stay sane... use them.   

I strongly agree for the most part that people way overestimate how much muscle they have gained when they go on a dirty bulk.  But... you are one of the few people who is going the other way.   I'm confident that you have gained more than a kilo in muscle... but who really cares?  Again remember your main goal as an athlete.   You want to be better.  You were semi-lean and got better athletic performance but your strength was plateauing and you decided to allow yourself to become less lean in order to chase down your goal of squatting X kilos (and more importantly getting stronger legs).  When you hit that goal you will do like any sensible power athlete and try and lean down whilst preserving strength.   If you can lean back down to your previous weight without losing strength... Well then I guess you haven't gained any muscle.   But who cares!  Your performance will be maximized at this level.   If you lean down to a level of 5kg above your previous weight.... Then you essentially gained 5kg of muscle.  If you only gained 3kg of muscle and 2kg are actually fat that provides you the leverage to be that strong.... It doesn't really matter...  If the weight is necessary for the strength, it's strength-dependent weight.  The goal is always to gain as little of this as possible so you don't become yo-yo strong.  This is IMO the biggest danger of a dirty bulk.  Not the added fat (discipline can shed that)... but the yo-yo affect of strength and weight. 

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1407 on: December 12, 2013, 03:12:55 pm »
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3g of water for every gram of fat???   There is little relationship between water weight and fat.  Glycogen carries water, fat is hydrophobic, that's why it's such an efficient energy source.

Within a fat cell, you store 3g of water for every 1g of fat (triglyceride). So that's a lot of water stored there in those fat cells. When we talk about bodyfat we're talking about all those fat cells not just the stored energy of the cells. Correct me if i'm wrong here.

Quote
Contractile muscle tissue?  Why are you making things so complicated?  Are you afraid that you are gaining sensory muscle spindle only?   Of course a gain in muscle weight doesn't occur only at the sarcomere... but approximations are necessary to stay sane... use them.   

Not trying to make it complicated just saying that actual muscle mass isn't something that i've drastically altered. It's pretty much the same. Maybe I have gained a kilo or so more dry muscle than before. But that's probably about it. I am being conservative in my opinion because as you said it's easy to overestimate gains on a bulk. The only true judge is the cut. I expect to lose the vast majority of my size and weight after the cut and maybe top out a kilo, maybe 2 kilos heavier than before. We're on the same page though. I expect to be leaner at a slightly higher bodyweight than before. A lot stronger though. Most my the weight i'm holding right now is dead-weight, muscles aren't a lot bigger, but i'll cut dilligently and build and preserve my strength. Lets see how it goes, i'm pretty excited to see where I end up :)
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- RSR-W1D3
« Reply #1408 on: December 13, 2013, 08:15:29 am »
0
Training
FS 2x130 (PR)
BS 1x145, 1x147.5B, 1x152.5B
BS 6x2x130
BP 2x97.5 (PR), 1x100 (PR)

FS notes:
I'd like my warmup sequence to be 6x60, 3x100, 2x130, 1x140. Only problem is i'm not strong enuf for that yet. So next time i'll go for 137.5 after the 130 double. Or maybe i'll just add reps to the 130 set. Will see how it goes.

BS notes:
Haven't recovered from wednesdays yet. Hoping to be on mon. Struggled with bar speed.

BP notes:
Day of milestones. I finally made the switch to bigger plates. From 2x5kgs to 2x15kgs and 2x20kgs for the last set. This is significant because it's a *lot* harder with the larger plates in my experience. I wanted 3x97.5kg -- i am happy with doubling it for now. Getting the 100kg milestone was kind of nice. But damn so much grind! Next time i'll go for the triple of 97.5kg. My goal is so close now, 3x100kg is where I want to be.

That's the lot, week 1 down. I will take this weekend off for a change and get some much needed rest. Normally play ball but I won't this time around. Want to be fresh for monday. If i'm real strong i'll go for a 160kg PR on backsquat. If i'm weak, i'll just do the RX sets - i'm getting tired of these heavy maximal singles .. they're draining.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 06:41:53 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1409 on: December 14, 2013, 04:01:08 am »
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I'm coming to the realisation that i've missed out of on a lot of athletic benefit of heavy belted squats -- big strong glutes and hamstrings. Maybe not for my standing vertical jump but certainly for accelerating from 0 to top-speed. On the court and in sprinting. If i'm right about htis, i'll be able to see better times after i'm done building up a respectable belted backsquat (~180kg or so). And by then my bodyweight will be lower too so i'll get the benefits of being lighter and having stronger legs as well. In fact I think the belted squatmorning is the superior exercise for buillding raw athleticism. I also expect it to carry over well to my 3 step jumps which is pretty much what i care about the most when it comes to jumping that's how i get my highest jump!

I have done this experiment before. When I exclusively used lowbar belted squat mornings, even at a bodyweight of 90+kg i could move so quickly around the court that it surprised me a lot. My vertical was just ok, was a one leg jumper then and i could jump pretty high (for me at the time). Eventually i dedicated myself to athletic squatting and become a double leg jumper. But before that i was a single leg one. Incidentally all this new leg strength has done nothing for my 1 leg vertical which is pretty much useless on the court except if you get enough space to get in position for a double leg jump which is extremely rare.

Marvelling at the infinite variety afforded to 'squats'. From the venerable highbar to the despicable squatmorning and the favorite front squat. I need to use all 3. I will be logging FS, SQM, and BS from now on. Unless otherwise stated, a correct SQM will always be done with a belt, and the other 2 without one.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 09:21:35 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat