Author Topic: low bar squat vs high bar squat  (Read 26733 times)

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AlexV

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2010, 09:53:25 pm »
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what is a potty squat?

1/4-1/2 squat
sitting back
shins stay vertical
spine stays neutral
it is kinda like the top of a westside style box squat with your feet at olympic style width. 

It is all about isolating the glute and getting it to control the hip
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TheSituation

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2010, 11:03:24 pm »
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Of course the full squat is better assuming you could do the same amount of weight on a full squat as you can on a half squat, but you can't, so half squat wins.
No, they don't, but I do not expect you to comprehend that.

You're right, lets just add more ROM to every exercise and disregard the weight used because more ROM is always better.

The only reason you think the full squat is better is because of the added ROM. You have no experience with " full squatz increazed vertz by 8 inches while half squat only did 6 inchez'

Let's start deadlifting standing on 12 inch boxes.
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steven-miller

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2010, 02:30:24 am »
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You're right, lets just add more ROM to every exercise and disregard the weight used because more ROM is always better.

The only reason you think the full squat is better is because of the added ROM. You have no experience with " full squatz increazed vertz by 8 inches while half squat only did 6 inchez'

Let's start deadlifting standing on 12 inch boxes.

If it is useful ROM (unlike in your example), it is indeed always better to go over full ROM as long as other technical demands are also taken in to consideration. Sure, there will be points to argue about. I can hardly see such things related to depth of the squat. You obviously can, but you also don't squat, so...

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2010, 09:18:21 am »
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AlexV nailed it: It depends, it depends, it depends, it depends.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Kellyb

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2010, 05:53:43 pm »
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Just saw this thread and thought I'd throw out a comment. IMO a lot of the debate is over interpretations in the definition of what is a half squat vs full squat.  For me a full squat is legal powerlifting depth...at parallel or just below. Olympic lifters have their own definition of squats.   I've never recommended full ATG olympic style squats unless people just like doing them.

I'm pretty sure James Smith is referring to the same thing in what he calls a half squat.

I could live with that squat for anyone. That squat Jarron Gilbert did I'd consider that a good squat.

The thing is I know from experience when the average bro gets in the squat rack he tends to perceive things differently than what is really taking place.  For most people a "full squat" is what an olympic lifter would call a half squat and going even to parallel is against the natural tendency of most people.   I've been in enough high school  and college weight rooms, gyms and I've seen enough video of people misinterpreting things that I would never tell anyone to do a half squat, especially on the internet.   Because I know without fail most will be doing something resembling a 1/8 squat without about 100 more pounds than they can safely  handle and at worst tear their back to hell and at best get little benefit from the exercise.    Just a couple of weeks ago I saw a bro load up about 405 lbs on the squat rack when he was capable of doing maybe half that correctly.  I turned away for a few moments before hearing a loud CRASH as the weight crushed him to the pins.  That's not an uncommon occurence at all. 

steven-miller

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2010, 06:16:33 pm »
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Just saw this thread and thought I'd throw out a comment. IMO a lot of the debate is over interpretations in the definition of what is a half squat vs full squat.  For me a full squat is legal powerlifting depth...at parallel or just below. Olympic lifters have their own definition of squats.   I've never recommended full ATG olympic style squats unless people just like doing them.

I'm pretty sure James Smith is referring to the same thing in what he calls a half squat.

I could live with that squat for anyone. That squat Jarron Gilbert did I'd consider that a good squat.

The thing is I know from experience when the average bro gets in the squat rack he tends to perceive things differently than what is really taking place.  For most people a "full squat" is what an olympic lifter would call a half squat and going even to parallel is against the natural tendency of most people.   I've been in enough high school  and college weight rooms, gyms and I've seen enough video of people misinterpreting things that I would never tell anyone to do a half squat, especially on the internet.   Because I know without fail most will be doing something resembling a 1/8 squat without about 100 more pounds than they can safely  handle and at worst tear their back to hell and at best get little benefit from the exercise.    Just a couple of weeks ago I saw a bro load up about 405 lbs on the squat rack when he was capable of doing maybe half that correctly.  I turned away for a few moments before hearing a loud CRASH as the weight crushed him to the pins.  That's not an uncommon occurence at all.  

Just recently a guy ruined a bar in the gym I train at by loading up to 530 lbs for his 1/4 squats, getting out of position and letting it drop on the pins from pretty much shoulder height. I heard from the trainers but I am pretty sure I know who the guy is and he is not weak. He is actually a very, very good sprinter whose coach told him he wouldn't need full squats since he does not need the ROM for his sport. Thing is the guy is really a very advanced athlete in his events (long jump and 100 m) and to get a decent training effect for his GPP from 1/4 squats he needs to go heavy. Turns out maybe too heavy than what he can actually handle safely. I hope he is alright.

tychver

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2010, 08:51:24 pm »
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Just recently a guy ruined a bar in the gym I train at by loading up to 530 lbs for his 1/4 squats, getting out of position and letting it drop on the pins from pretty much shoulder height. I heard from the trainers but I am pretty sure I know who the guy is and he is not weak. He is actually a very, very good sprinter whose coach told him he wouldn't need full squats since he does not need the ROM for his sport. Thing is the guy is really a very advanced athlete in his events (long jump and 100 m) and to get a decent training effect for his GPP from 1/4 squats he needs to go heavy. Turns out maybe too heavy than what he can actually handle safely. I hope he is alright.

Yeah it can be hard to control so much weight. I've seen a few oly lifters black out doing jerk drives (basically 1/4 a quarter front squat). They're often done from a dead stop on a rack too like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuHqseSSyRM&feature=related

bball2020

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2010, 10:05:10 pm »
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Just out of curiosity, anyone have idea of those that have achieved elite(37+) via mainyl low bar vs highbar

High bar
kingfish
rip?

low bar
uh?

n00bEM

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2010, 11:12:33 pm »
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If I remember correctly, Stefan Holm was doing low box step ups (I assume for specificity) but his back squats actually looked very deep (to recruit more fibres etc. like KellyB would say I'd assume). Just more food for thought.
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Raptor

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2010, 06:04:57 am »
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Yeah I guess it doesn't really make sense for unilateral jumpers to do 1/4 squats with heavy weights if they can do the same weight with step-ups, since the step-ups are more specific.

So it's full squats to build muscle and step-ups for specificity.

steven-miller

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2010, 07:59:00 am »
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Just out of curiosity, anyone have idea of those that have achieved elite(37+) via mainyl low bar vs highbar

High bar
kingfish
rip?

low bar
uh?


kingfish is the only person that I know off and whose progress and means to it are somewhat (but not perfectly) pursuable from here and TVS that actually got his SVJ to 37" or higher. That tells me some things about either the general wisdom of how to approach training (for example to make training decisions based upon which of the alternatives you like best while at the same expecting perfect results) OR about the improvements possible in this area. Neither of these things is something people like to hear about, so I will leave it at that.
One also has to observe that kingfish did amazing progress from a reported mid 20s SVJ to I believe around 38", but that it also took him many years to accomplish this. And also that he seems to be a great exception from the rule based on all the VJ enthusiasts on the related forums and their below-elite results, based upon your categorization at least.

Rip had incredible success also, but his situation does NOT apply to the majority of people here since he started with a high RVJ already when he was I believe 14 years old. Anyone remotely familiar with the typical hormonal changes that go on from this age up to the early 20s might become skeptical whether the same progress would be possible for someone who is not a teenager anymore and starts from rather low VJ and thus seems to be less talented in the first place. One also has to take note of his not-elite (again, based upon your definition) SVJ.

In conclusion and based upon these two examples it seems to be far fetched to say that the usage of the high-bar squat does correlate with better success in VJ training, especially in face of the fact that so many more people use the high-bar variant and don't get to the level you described as elite. On the other hand there is tychver, who stopped training for VJ years ago and yet has to show a respectable running and standing jump - below elite by your definition, but pretty good for someone with his build and not even trying anymore to jump high. He squats low-bar, ATG and does olympic weightlifting. You could also take me as example of someone with below elite results, but there are still not so many people around here or TVS with a 36" SVJ, are there? Not even two years training time, interrupted by three volleyball seasons where only little athletic training took place, is not excessive either, or would you say so?
So the small number of people that used the low-bar squat in the first place did not get to elite results yet, but can still report good progress, in fact better than the majority of people using the high-bar variant.
Now, I would not conclude anything from this. But anecdotally it should tell you that doing squats low-bar and below parallel is not the antithesis to athleticism.

bball2020

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2010, 01:00:13 pm »
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I agree and its what ive been saying all along, no squat is the holy grail, pick a variation and get strong :strong:


BMully

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2011, 06:19:54 pm »
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I agree and its what ive been saying all along, no squat is the holy grail, pick a variation and get strong :strong:



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Dreyth

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2011, 09:41:24 pm »
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I like mid-bar. I think that's what I'm doing... it's still pretty high though. Usually I squat with the barbell on the very top of my traps. Now I put the barbell an inch lower because it's a lot more comfortable and I can lift easier. It kind of rests behind the very top of my traps. But it's still DEFINITELY not resting on my rear delts, not even touching the top of them. I use a narrow stance and go near-ATG. I break parallel all the time, but only maybe every 5th rep do I hit rock bottom. Actually, I'm uploading a video of it right now in HD :)

Will be in the pics/vids section.
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Dreyth

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Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2011, 09:46:46 pm »
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Oh, btw, i think the low bar squat translates a bit less to the VJ. However, since you can use more weight in the low-bar, it pretty much evens out. IMO you'd probably be at the same spot VJ-wise with either approach...

example:

A - After 3 years, Squat high-bar 405lbs at 200lbs bw and jump 30"
B - After 3 yeras, Squat low-bar 440lbs at 200lbs bw and jump 30"

Choose on preference.
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