Author Topic: Hip thrust and glute science  (Read 8520 times)

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LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 02:44:16 am »
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I'm thinking of doing everyday hip thrusts... they should have a good effect on my glute recruitment and who knows, maybe even strength and hypertrophy.

 Try it and see, I did a few sets prior to each workout for a while and noticed nothing in the way of hypertrophy, but definitely some higher levels of glute activation early on even in light sets of different exercises.

You know it's weird but what you said some time ago sticked in my head (no, not that thing about the crow) - I was like "I'm a hamstring jumper etc etc etc" and you were like "then why don't you build stronger hamstrings" and I was like "yeah but I want these glutes blah blah blah"...

I think in a weird kind of way I want BEAST hamstrings... I feel like I use them the MOST of any other muscles and while that might not be optimal (I'd be better off using the glutes right)... having very strong hamstrings isn't a bad idea. Unfortunately I haven't found anything that works them really well (I don't want to do glute ham raises).

Never seen anyone get worse from getting strong hams.  Think of any athlete *or person, which would be VERY unusual to find someone who wasnt or hasnt been an athlete * that had overly developed hamstrings, and see how well they moved.
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LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 02:49:55 am »
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http://bretcontreras.com/hip-thrust-and-glute-science/?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bretcontreras&utm_content=Perhaps+My+Most+Scientific+Glute+%26+Hip+Thrust+Article+to+Date...

Nice, glad you posted it.

 Im kind of on the fence with using hip thrusts for hypertrophy though, the reverse hyper seems to do a much better job in that aspect.  It makes sense as it hits the glutes in the stretch as well as at the end range, where the hip thrust is limited to primarily the top.  To be honest I have never seen a very large increase in glute hypertrophy unless squats were present in the programming, and thats including online. Working shit in the stretch is where its at for hypertrophy imo.

 I will say that for activation purposes the hip thrust is great at getting people to use their glutes on things like cleans and snatches, as well as sprints/jumps.  I like 2 x 10 with a 2 second hold at the top, very light weight pre whatever activity you wish to see more glute driven movement on.

I'm in the midst of trying to increase my one leg vertical to at least something acceptable. Do you think the reverse hyper has a place Lance?

absolutely, especially the single leg version.  I got a reactive version from a speed camp a long time ago where you hold one leg at the top, everything tensed to the maximum, then allow it to free fall half way down, catching and reversing right back up to the top.  That potentiates the shit out of single leg jumps, even for guys who usually collapse off one leg.  It seems to help override inhibitions in some manner, since the effect is so immediate.

fwiw, I think the key to single leg jumping is training the leg as more of a "lever", with a small knee flexion at the top. Things like single leg box squat (with the working leg far out in front requring a "pull" to stand), single leg hang clean (for force absorption overload), single leg reverse hyper and single leg ghr are the keys, with heavy single leg calf work thrown in. 

Things like lunges and step ups dont work as well imo since they train the legs more like a 2 leg version of the jump.  This is the eason I believe so many people have trouble with their single leg jumps, rather than training the leg as a lever, they train it as a folding mechanism like you would for a squat/2 leg vert.

Interesting, I'm training my brother who is a single leg jumper. Right now I'm having him just develop on half squats (he's 6'6)and single leg hip thrust with a starting strength routine. How could I incorporate the single leg box squat and single leg power clean in? Keep the half squats or replace with single leg box squat?

It would depend on 1. if he is still improving his jumps currently, and 2. how advanced he is.  The problem with using single leg box squats on athletes that arent already pretty strong and explosive is that they wont even be able to stand from the box without load properly, much less with added weight.  When you walk the working leg out in front of the box, it turns into an explosive single leg reverse hyper/leg curl/quarter squat type movement.  Weaker athletes will simply keep the feet close to the box and make the movement a high quarter squat/quad move.
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LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 02:53:08 am »
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http://bretcontreras.com/hip-thrust-and-glute-science/?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bretcontreras&utm_content=Perhaps+My+Most+Scientific+Glute+%26+Hip+Thrust+Article+to+Date...

Nice, glad you posted it.

 Im kind of on the fence with using hip thrusts for hypertrophy though, the reverse hyper seems to do a much better job in that aspect.  It makes sense as it hits the glutes in the stretch as well as at the end range, where the hip thrust is limited to primarily the top.  To be honest I have never seen a very large increase in glute hypertrophy unless squats were present in the programming, and thats including online. Working shit in the stretch is where its at for hypertrophy imo.

 I will say that for activation purposes the hip thrust is great at getting people to use their glutes on things like cleans and snatches, as well as sprints/jumps.  I like 2 x 10 with a 2 second hold at the top, very light weight pre whatever activity you wish to see more glute driven movement on.

I'm in the midst of trying to increase my one leg vertical to at least something acceptable. Do you think the reverse hyper has a place Lance?

absolutely, especially the single leg version.  I got a reactive version from a speed camp a long time ago where you hold one leg at the top, everything tensed to the maximum, then allow it to free fall half way down, catching and reversing right back up to the top.  That potentiates the shit out of single leg jumps, even for guys who usually collapse off one leg.  It seems to help override inhibitions in some manner, since the effect is so immediate.

fwiw, I think the key to single leg jumping is training the leg as more of a "lever", with a small knee flexion at the top. Things like single leg box squat (with the working leg far out in front requring a "pull" to stand), single leg hang clean (for force absorption overload), single leg reverse hyper and single leg ghr are the keys, with heavy single leg calf work thrown in. 

Things like lunges and step ups dont work as well imo since they train the legs more like a 2 leg version of the jump.  This is the reason I believe so many people have trouble with their single leg jumps, rather than training the leg as a lever, they train it as a folding mechanism like you would for a squat/2 leg vert.

Thanks, I'll give those a shot. One leg glute hams? Sounds tough!

You bet.  And the single leg ghr is on a ghr bench, you can move the pad up far enough from the feet that they are not so tough, though they are still definitely an advanced exercise. If done correctly (starting with the low abs) they are one of the most intensive glute exercises there is.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 05:56:27 am »
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What other ideas of good hamstring exercises do you have? I think straight leg deadlifts have felt the best to me so far but I'm very strong with them... I have I'd say very strong hamstrings anyway but still.

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 03:32:57 pm »
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By the way - how does a foot elevated straight leg hip thrust sound? It's very similar to what happens in a one-leg jump and you can overload it to your heart's consent.

Raptor

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 06:49:26 pm »
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For people that are too lazy:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5WhWu1g080" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5WhWu1g080</a>

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 06:50:29 pm »
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What other ideas of good hamstring exercises do you have? I think straight leg deadlifts have felt the best to me so far but I'm very strong with them... I have I'd say very strong hamstrings anyway but still.

If you cant do ghr and reverse hypers, I like rdl and single leg rdls holding onto something with the off hand.  The single leg rdls with the balance issue taken out turn into one hell of a glute ham destroyer, and allow you to really focus on overloading the muscles this way.  Only issue Ive had with them is once someone gets very strong, its harder to hold a 150 plus pound dumbell, even with straps in one hand.  Once you get to that point you will have already developed some great strength regardless.
Relax.

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 06:51:24 pm »
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By the way - how does a foot elevated straight leg hip thrust sound? It's very similar to what happens in a one-leg jump and you can overload it to your heart's consent.

 Makes sense why it would work, havent tried it though so I have no idea if it would or not.  Try and see.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 06:57:05 pm »
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By the way - how does a foot elevated straight leg hip thrust sound? It's very similar to what happens in a one-leg jump and you can overload it to your heart's consent.

 Makes sense why it would work, havent tried it though so I have no idea if it would or not.  Try and see.

I think also a one-leg "back extension" on the hyperextension machine would work too, although it would have a different way of loading than the one-leg straight-leg hip thrust.

I remember this was a "secret exercise" in the Vertical Project of Puke Lowery™

Raptor

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2013, 06:58:45 pm »
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What other ideas of good hamstring exercises do you have? I think straight leg deadlifts have felt the best to me so far but I'm very strong with them... I have I'd say very strong hamstrings anyway but still.

If you cant do ghr and reverse hypers, I like rdl and single leg rdls holding onto something with the off hand.  The single leg rdls with the balance issue taken out turn into one hell of a glute ham destroyer, and allow you to really focus on overloading the muscles this way.  Only issue Ive had with them is once someone gets very strong, its harder to hold a 150 plus pound dumbell, even with straps in one hand.  Once you get to that point you will have already developed some great strength regardless.

I was doing them with a bar back in the day but I did bent the knee sometimes... not sure if it was because of stability issues or just because of weakness... is that a sign of weak hamstrings (and thus transferring the stabilization into the quads by bending the knee)?

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2013, 07:12:59 pm »
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What other ideas of good hamstring exercises do you have? I think straight leg deadlifts have felt the best to me so far but I'm very strong with them... I have I'd say very strong hamstrings anyway but still.

If you cant do ghr and reverse hypers, I like rdl and single leg rdls holding onto something with the off hand.  The single leg rdls with the balance issue taken out turn into one hell of a glute ham destroyer, and allow you to really focus on overloading the muscles this way.  Only issue Ive had with them is once someone gets very strong, its harder to hold a 150 plus pound dumbell, even with straps in one hand.  Once you get to that point you will have already developed some great strength regardless.

I was doing them with a bar back in the day but I did bent the knee sometimes... not sure if it was because of stability issues or just because of weakness... is that a sign of weak hamstrings (and thus transferring the stabilization into the quads by bending the knee)?

ya on the weak hams part, or could simply be a habitual issue from moving that way once the tension gets high, but you were elevating the rear foot right? Im talking about holding onto something similar to a single leg calf raise set up, only doing a single leg rdl.  There is no balance issue to keep you from smashing your glutes/hams unilaterally.
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Raptor

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2013, 07:32:48 pm »
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But then if the balance factor is such an issue, wouldn't it be better just to do a regular straight leg deadlift instead?

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 09:24:47 pm »
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But then if the balance factor is such an issue, wouldn't it be better just to do a regular straight leg deadlift instead?

the pelvis is doing different things when you lift/jump off one leg than two.  I see the  low back come into play much more with the 2 legs rdl since the load is increased so much vs the single leg.
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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 12:42:04 am »
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since i am not strong enough to do a GHR on seated calf raise or lateral pull machine and my gym doesn't have a GHR machine, i am currently doing good mornings, 45 deg hypers, single leg curls, and db swings.

i'm going to incorporate hip thrusts in there.
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TKXII

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Re: Hip thrust and glute science
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2013, 06:57:45 pm »
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Single leg hypers are my favorite:

I'm not fond of hip thrusts because it's just awkward and I can hit my glutes harder in my single leg RDLs, and I have not ever grown fond of GHRs, and I have not tried reverse hypers (i'm sure I would love them), so my opinion is not completely unbiased, but THESE HIT YOUR HAMSTRINGS SO FUCKING HARD. DO THEM.

The other benefit is that they won't fatigue you centrally as much as stiff-legged DLs, or sprinting, or hip thrusts, since it's basically an isolation exercise, but one that also has good specificity to sprinting and single leg jumping.

Yes Lowrey claimed them to be a secret exercise in his program. I think they could be a secret exercise for SPRINTING, I wonder if T0dday knows anything about famous sprinters swearing by this exercise, I doubt it but I would suspect that if you gave two groups of unsprint-trained athletes stiff legged deadlifts and squats, or single leg hypers and squats at the same intensity, you'd find higher vertical jumps and and faster sprint times in the group that did single leg hypers. I swear doing these a lot last year made me feel incredibly bouncy and light for my sprints.

I also want beast hamstrings, badly, and I plan to use this machine until I can lift two 45lb plates with one leg, then just keep going obviously.

I think the best method in this exercise is to hold a weight with arms extended at the bottom of the ROM, and attempt to lift it outwards away from the machine AND upwards at the same time towards the chest, curling the weight with the arms, rather than holding it statically and just lifting it upwards, to maximally innervate the hamstrings group. Slowly descending, arms relax and extend again, until the next rep where I stretch the hamstring a little then lift upwards with a nice amortization. It's way too hard to lift it all the way up above the head with a heavy weight, that also seems to hit the back a lot more. The potentiation is nice too.

When going very very heavy, it's impossible to lift outwards; instead you will just lift it up towards the chest. It is critical to flex and unflex the arms at the top and bottom of the ROM respectively, as the mild acceleration resulting from doing so increases the forces the hamstrings have to produce to reverse direction, just like with kettlebell swings, thus training eccentric overload or w/e you call it. It's probably dangerous to lift too heavy since the forces on the tendons at the back of the knee are unparalleled by any other exercise except stiff legged deadlifts with the knees locked, which no one does obviously.

Seriously, do them. I haven't tried reverse hypers, but I'd suspect you would get better results with regular hypers because you can initiate a much stronger stretch-reflex at the bottom of the ROM and manipulate the positioning of your arms to lessen or increase the load on the hamstrings. It's of course viewed as a supplementary exercise, but I wonder what results sprint athletes and high jumpers could have if they treated it as a primary strength exercise and trained it 3-5 times a week until they could lift upwards of their own bodyweight with one leg.

"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf