Author Topic: a fast and explosive donkey! (Read 1104123 times)

AGC · « **Reply #1635 on:** February 09, 2013, 12:21:55 am »

Quote from: LBSS on February 08, 2013, 12:39:46 am

revisiting the "stole acole14's template" thread, here is what t0ddday originally prescribed. goal is to get two of each type in per week. avishek, where you at? you want to do these track workouts when it gets warm? banneker high school? or cardozo? t0ddday, how much rest between each workout? 4 a week means at least one day with no rest. unless i do 2-a-days.

on that note, i also got in touch with my buddy who has the old gym booked for bball in the mornings. that would lend itself to 2-a-days.

either way, will not shift gears until indoor ultimate season is over, at which point i'll be in better shape and also once again have rest days in the middle of the week.

Quote
*** Track Workout ***

1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).

- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -

1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)

- Running -

1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)

** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)

**** Weights/Gym Workout ****

1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat. Work up to a challenging but not max single. Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc. This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference: Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more. Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]

IMO, whatever you do, you need to have a change from your current training approach which seems to be something like 3x gym a week doing squats and tucks/SVJs/depth jumps together in the same session. I heard a great quote from some S&C podcast I listened to lately that made me think of your current problem:

"Everything works, but nothing works forever".

Should your current training approach give you consistent vertical jump gains? Yes. But is it working at the moment? Seemingly not. I think you could possibly benefit from a change of mindset from a strength-based approach to an speed/explosiveness-based approach for awhile. You could probably do any of the following:

- Todday's program which has more of a track slant;

- Joel Smith's 1-legged jump program (mix of strength work different to your current lifting, and bounding sessions);

- Mini-periodisation setup where you alternate between short explosiveness/speed blocks and have a deload/rest week every few cycles to go for PRs;

- Train with Avishek (I REALLY like this idea as he's basically your polar opposite, would be very interesting).

Up to you, I know in the past you've gotten gains when your squat numbers have been near PR levels so you might not want to decrease the strength emphasis. I guess my thinking lately is that leg strength measures are very important for vertical jump up until a certain relative level (each individual's number is probably different depending on style, structure etc., but let's say say 2xBW for squat or 2.5xBW for DL). Beyond this point though, unless you are really committed to gaining freakish relative strength like Kingfish or those Broz lifters (fairly long-term effort/impossible for some), then eventually I think you'll have to incorporate more speed/strength expression work if you wanna get higher.

Just my $0.02, whatever you do I'm really hoping you get some good results. I know it can be fucking demoralising when you start plateau-ing.

Raptor · « **Reply #1636 on:** February 09, 2013, 02:09:14 am »

By the way LBSS - did you do any cleans/snatches as of yet?

When I was doing my broad jumps/2-leg bounds as plyos (I have a ~10m area in the gym where I can do these) - I played around with doing snatches (or shall I call them "standing power hip thrusts" at that time) and I had a 90cm increase in my 3 2-leg bounds or something like that.

It really potentiated the posterior chain and I used that potentiation immediately in the jumps (so I was alternating snatches with 2-leg bounds or broad jumps).

You could also probably complex heavy very low volume half squats with depth jumps etc

T0ddday · « **Reply #1637 on:** February 09, 2013, 12:09:11 pm »

Quote from: acole14 on February 09, 2013, 12:21:55 am

Quote from: LBSS on February 08, 2013, 12:39:46 am
revisiting the "stole acole14's template" thread, here is what t0ddday originally prescribed. goal is to get two of each type in per week. avishek, where you at? you want to do these track workouts when it gets warm? banneker high school? or cardozo? t0ddday, how much rest between each workout? 4 a week means at least one day with no rest. unless i do 2-a-days.

on that note, i also got in touch with my buddy who has the old gym booked for bball in the mornings. that would lend itself to 2-a-days.

either way, will not shift gears until indoor ultimate season is over, at which point i'll be in better shape and also once again have rest days in the middle of the week.

Quote
*** Track Workout ***

1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).

- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -

1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)

- Running -

1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)

** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)

**** Weights/Gym Workout ****

1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat. Work up to a challenging but not max single. Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc. This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference: Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more. Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]

IMO, whatever you do, you need to have a change from your current training approach which seems to be something like 3x gym a week doing squats and tucks/SVJs/depth jumps together in the same session. I heard a great quote from some S&C podcast I listened to lately that made me think of your current problem:

"Everything works, but nothing works forever".

Should your current training approach give you consistent vertical jump gains? Yes. But is it working at the moment? Seemingly not. I think you could possibly benefit from a change of mindset from a strength-based approach to an speed/explosiveness-based approach for awhile. You could probably do any of the following:

- Todday's program which has more of a track slant;

- Joel Smith's 1-legged jump program (mix of strength work different to your current lifting, and bounding sessions);

- Mini-periodisation setup where you alternate between short explosiveness/speed blocks and have a deload/rest week every few cycles to go for PRs;

- Train with Avishek (I REALLY like this idea as he's basically your polar opposite, would be very interesting).

Up to you, I know in the past you've gotten gains when your squat numbers have been near PR levels so you might not want to decrease the strength emphasis. I guess my thinking lately is that leg strength measures are very important for vertical jump up until a certain relative level (each individual's number is probably different depending on style, structure etc., but let's say say 2xBW for squat or 2.5xBW for DL). Beyond this point though, unless you are really committed to gaining freakish relative strength like Kingfish or those Broz lifters (fairly long-term effort/impossible for some), then eventually I think you'll have to incorporate more speed/strength expression work if you wanna get higher.

Just my $0.02, whatever you do I'm really hoping you get some good results. I know it can be fucking demoralising when you start plateau-ing.

You ask some great Q's. Got a track meet and a bunch of work but I will get back more in depth when I have the time. Have what I think is some good advice for both you and Entropy but don't want to write it twice...

For now I will just say that I agree with acole about the need to switch up your training. Switching to more speed/strength expression in general might be more important than which template you choose (though I favor mine over the pure 1 legged one because your videos pegged you as someone whose best ability is as a reactive DL jumper). And, also I STRONGLY agree with idea of Avishek. He's benefited extremely from the board (came in with zany off the wall wrong ideas that didn't work and now has zany off the wall ideas that seem to work), has low limit strength but is more reactive especially off 1 leg, and could probably push you pretty well. Additionally track work is absolutely horrible without a training partner, almost impossible to do. I'll get you some more detailed stuff soon, until then hope the weather on your coast actually allows outdoors (it's sunny every day here and I have access to world class facilities... I know everyone isn't so lucky).

PS I will be in Baltimore in a few months for a couple weeks. Will be looking for some track/workout facilities. Is that near you? Any recommendations?

LBSS · « **Reply #1638 on:** February 09, 2013, 01:19:19 pm »

thanks guys for the responses. you're all right, i need to mix things up. i have more detailed thoughts but gotta roll at the moment.

t0ddday, baltimore is close and i'm there a lot because my gf lives there (and some other friends). i'll pm you later.

Kingfish · « **Reply #1639 on:** February 09, 2013, 07:02:43 pm »

Quote from: acole14 on February 09, 2013, 12:21:55 am

Up to you, I know in the past you've gotten gains when your squat numbers have been near PR levels so you might not want to decrease the strength emphasis. I guess my thinking lately is that leg strength measures are very important for vertical jump up until a certain relative level (each individual's number is probably different depending on style, structure etc., but let's say say 2xBW for squat or 2.5xBW for DL). Beyond this point though, unless you are really committed to gaining freakish relative strength like Kingfish or those Broz lifters (fairly long-term effort/impossible for some), then eventually I think you'll have to incorporate more speed/strength expression work if you wanna get higher.

the stronger i get, the better my SVJs get. you cannot express the strength that you do not have. my jumps continually improve IMO because i believe that i will jump higher - there is nowhere this new +lbs in my squat is going to go.

the problem could be that you expect things to happen quick. i'e, squatted 350 today.. let me test my jump in a few days and see how many inches i've gained. i could wait 2-3 weeks doing squat maintenance and a lot more SVJ reps until i see myself adapt to the SVJ stimulus.

also, when you reach a squat PR.. do not use that as a basis of strength. it's the repeatable poundage (with very little STIM) that matters. IMO.

good luck buddy.

edit: these SVJ drills worked really well for me. i go for max reps.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDScwmqe1kk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDScwmqe1kk</a>

Raptor · « **Reply #1640 on:** February 09, 2013, 07:30:04 pm »

Definitely the repeatable poundage. I mean the PR does indicate something good is happening, but if you can only pull that off when the stars align and under psyche-out conditions then you won't really "use" that strength on the field.

So I'm with Kingfish on this one.

T0ddday · « **Reply #1641 on:** February 11, 2013, 11:05:57 am »

Agree somewhat with what the other guys say. Often best gains come when squat is in maintenance which probably further proves their point of repeatable strength being important.

As far as my template goes rest between workouts depends on you. Basically, bound before weights, weights can be before SVJ. You want rest from high-intensity bounding and top speed/accels. Weights depends on your work capacity, if you currently squat 2x a week you don't want to increase it on this program obviously.

A good split would be:

Monday: Warmup, Shot Throws, Intense Bounding (go for PRs), 4x60m sprints, 1x100m, weight room: Psnatch/clean, front squat, push press.
Tuesday: Warmup/Bounding Warmup, work on trail leg cycle and go a fixed distance, shot throws, tempo track (3x3 200m (30sec recovery between reps,3 min between sets) - easy pace (PR+ ~10sec, dont fall off). Weight room.

Repeat Thurs/Friday.

Basically, tempo is viewed almost as recovery. This might seem weird because as you start out tempo runs will probably make you more sore and they will hurt much more than speed work. BUT, as you get into shape you will recover well from tempo work. Recovery from multiple hi-intensity sprints will actually get worse as you get faster. That's why you stick with a program like this for awhile. Will transform you. One thing we like to add in season is putting that full squat or front squat on maintenance and adding in some dynamic band work. A bit easier to recover from with the lighter pounds but keeps squat volume high enough to make maintenance easy. Will try and get a demo for you.

LBSS · « **Reply #1642 on:** February 11, 2013, 03:25:02 pm »

right so thanks again to everyone for the feedback. except kingfish, who just wanted a chance to show off his standing two-handed dunks again.

but also, @kingfish: i don't expect things to happen quick. i'm conditioned, in fact, to seeing gains come slowly and sporadically. but since i started doing SVJ instead of RVJ, two months ago, i have seen no real gains. squat strength has also not moved significantly since a year ago. so yes, you're absolutely right in that squatting more will not instantly transform into jumping gains or vice versa. i'd say, though, that there are a bunch of dudes on here whose squat is weaker than mine, relative to bw or absolutely, but who jump a lot higher than i do. raptor is one, vag is another, i'm sure there are others. not saying i'm strong, just that strength under the bar isn't everything, and it seems to me that my strength under the bar is out of proportion to my ability to jump high. and who knows, with a shift to speed and explosiveness for a while my squat could go up.

EDIT: the new dude whose username i forget at the momentis another good example of someone who is weaker than i am (barely DL's 300 pounds!) but who jumps a LOT higher than i do. dunking from a standstill with two hands is undoubtedly badass. but it's not actually my goal. my goal is to dunk off a run-up.

acole's quote stuck out: it's obvious that i need to try something different for a while. not going to abandon my modified texas method QUITE yet -- i'd like to have a week where 330 is going up strong on all reps on the MSEM day. talked to my buddy who's running the morning pickup basketball at the old gym and he said that i could probably have it to myself from 7:40-8, maybe even past that if i work out something separate with the manager guy. my thought is to show up around 7:15, warm up a bit, play a game of pick up to get the juices flowing, and then do a modified version of the T0ddday explosive/reactive workout. [broad jumps - bounds - sprints - running jumps]. sprints longer than ~15m aren't possible because there's not enough room to decelerate. and i don't have a shot yet. then in the evening do [snatch - squat - push press - assistance circuit - SVJ].

so

monday AM: explosive/speed
monday PM: RFD/strength

tuesday PM: ultimate or tempo or conditioning (e.g. fan bike, jump rope) or rest

wednesday AM: explosive/speed
wednesday PM: RFD/strength

thursday PM: ultimate or tempo or conditioning or rest

friday AM: explosive/speed

saturday: RFD/strength

sunday: tempo or conditioning or rest

given work and life, one or two of those tempo/conditioning sessions is likely to be rest. ultimate is not draining anymore. could do short fartleks or something until the tracks are open again. i'm going to try to get back into snatching but i'm not sure about OH mobility so will be careful about those until i'm comfortable. squat will be as t0ddday suggested: work up to a heavy but not grinding single, then do 2-3 x 3-4 at 80% of that.

/procrastination

T0ddday · « **Reply #1643 on:** February 11, 2013, 08:17:31 pm »

I say this with caution because I don't want to start this debate all over again. But KF's experience with his squat bringing up his vertical jump comes with a high-bar squat. You have increased your low-bar squat. I don't want to bring back age old arguments with Steven Miller (if I recall that guy had some ridiculously high squat numbers paired with a comparatively poor vertical leap...) or have someone start quoting Rippetoe.... but the lifts are not identical. IMO Greg Everetts book makes a good case for the better utility of high-bar squatting... but even if you are a low-bar disciple you have to realize the lifts are simply different and are one more reason you can't assume KF's experience will mirror yours.

KF increased his high-bar olympic squat without sacrificing much speed whilst putting in a lot of practice in the standing full-squat vertical jump, and coming out with a net weight loss. I don't believe he is the genetic outlier. Most people could get somewhat comparable improvements using the same method. However, you won't necessarily bring up your speed (something that's important for frisbee?) or increase your running DL vertical jump or SL vertical jump; All goals you seem to have.

I'm obviously a believer in the high-bar squat; in fact in some cases, I'd rather have athletes squat high-bar above parallel than low-bar squat. The form for which you can squeeze out the most poundage (see kipping pullups) is often the form which will translate the least other movements. While I am sure there are lifting coaches who know more than me who advocate the low-bar squat; all I know is I have seen a whole lot more people with big low-bar squats and poor vertical jumps, poor speed, poor pulls, poor dead lifts, poor front squats, etc than I have with the high-bar squat. I don't come across people too often who have added 100lbs to their high-bar squat and have stayed really stagnant in everything else. Just anecdotal, though!

My biases aside, you might consider switching up your squat form just to have a break from squatting. Some front squats or pause squats might be good to incorporate.

Additionally, you said you only had 15m to bound? I hope that doesn't mean you plan to do bounding on a basketball court or concrete. I strongly advise you to do maximal effort bounding on a basketball court for a long duration of time and will just flat out ask you to stay away from concrete. Bounding looks easy but it is hard.

Kingfish · « **Reply #1644 on:** February 11, 2013, 11:06:27 pm »

Quote from: T0ddday on February 11, 2013, 08:17:31 pm

I say this with caution because I don't want to start this debate all over again. But KF's experience with his squat bringing up his vertical jump comes with a high-bar squat. You have increased your low-bar squat. I don't want to bring back age old arguments with Steven Miller (if I recall that guy had some ridiculously high squat numbers paired with a comparatively poor vertical leap...) or have someone start quoting Rippetoe.... but the lifts are not identical. IMO Greg Everetts book makes a good case for the better utility of high-bar squatting... but even if you are a low-bar disciple you have to realize the lifts are simply different and are one more reason you can't assume KF's experience will mirror yours.

KF increased his high-bar olympic squat without sacrificing much speed whilst putting in a lot of practice in the standing full-squat vertical jump, and coming out with a net weight loss. I don't believe he is the genetic outlier. Most people could get somewhat comparable improvements using the same method. However, you won't necessarily bring up your speed (something that's important for frisbee?) or increase your running DL vertical jump or SL vertical jump; All goals you seem to have.

I'm obviously a believer in the high-bar squat; in fact in some cases, I'd rather have athletes squat high-bar above parallel than low-bar squat. The form for which you can squeeze out the most poundage (see kipping pullups) is often the form which will translate the least other movements. While I am sure there are lifting coaches who know more than me who advocate the low-bar squat; all I know is I have seen a whole lot more people with big low-bar squats and poor vertical jumps, poor speed, poor pulls, poor dead lifts, poor front squats, etc than I have with the high-bar squat. I don't come across people too often who have added 100lbs to their high-bar squat and have stayed really stagnant in everything else. Just anecdotal, though!

My biases aside, you might consider switching up your squat form just to have a break from squatting. Some front squats or pause squats might be good to incorporate.

Additionally, you said you only had 15m to bound? I hope that doesn't mean you plan to do bounding on a basketball court or concrete. I strongly advise you to do maximal effort bounding on a basketball court for a long duration of time and will just flat out ask you to stay away from concrete. Bounding looks easy but it is hard.

yes.

LBSS · « **Reply #1645 on:** February 11, 2013, 11:41:03 pm »

interesting points which require more thought when i am fed. initial thoughts: the kipping pull ups comparison has the tempting ring of verisimilitude but i'm not sure i buy it. again, will consider more later.

i had thought to bound on a bball court (it's hardwood, fwiw) but will stay away if you say so.

WEIGHT: 180
SORENESS: none
ACHES/INJURIES: none
MENTAL STATE: a bit down, distracted going into the workout but fine once i started warming up

- warm up

- ME broad jump x 4

- SVJ x 7
bad

- squat 315 x 5,5,5
PR tie, i'm pretty sure. whatever.

- push press 95 x 5,5

- S1: DB RDL 140 x 8
- S1: DB row 70 x 8
- S1 info: 2 rounds, 30s rest or less

- stretch

it was humid as shit in the warm up room. the walls were wet. got some vid of OH squat, which i did before starting my normal squat warm ups. ugly but just wanted to try it out. i'm mobility-deficient all over the place and i have some ideas about where specifically to work on based on this vid and how the squats felt, but input's appreciated as always.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eao3mL_-M3M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eao3mL_-M3M</a>

Raptor · « **Reply #1646 on:** February 12, 2013, 03:30:04 am »

What about people with no choice but to squat low bar, like me, that have knee issues? Even attempting 2 reps of high bar squats is a ticket to go home with knee pain (but I have whatever stuff moving in my right knee).

T0ddday · « **Reply #1647 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:25:45 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on February 11, 2013, 11:41:03 pm

interesting points which require more thought when i am fed. initial thoughts: the kipping pull ups comparison has the tempting ring of verisimilitude but i'm not sure i buy it. again, will consider more later.

i had thought to bound on a bball court (it's hardwood, fwiw) but will stay away if you say so.

It depends a lot on your joint health, but for sure grass/turf >> hardwood. You don't have access to any tracks? What is up with the DC metro area!?! On hardwood you can still get away with standing vertical jumps and can do low intensity single leg stuff if your body allows you.... but a soft surface is both 1) safer and 2) will give you better results because of the stiffness you will build up on the soft surface. Jamaicans train almost exclusively on grass for a part of the year and then move to mondo and run ridiculous times. You could do a low intensity day once on hardwood and then find a patch of grass somewhere and measure out distance and do 1 day where you put everything into your bounding. Full effort is really important, for both learning efficiency and making gains. Three of us in our training group got our triple depth-DL-bounding past 32 feet last year, unfortunately along the way things like this happen. It's funny on a soft surface but might not end well on hardwood.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3JeUA3re8s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3JeUA3re8s</a>

T0ddday · « **Reply #1648 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:29:03 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on February 11, 2013, 11:41:03 pm

it was humid as shit in the warm up room. the walls were wet. got some vid of OH squat, which i did before starting my normal squat warm ups. ugly but just wanted to try it out. i'm mobility-deficient all over the place and i have some ideas about where specifically to work on based on this vid and how the squats felt, but input's appreciated as always.

Overhead squats good to incorporate into your workout. Try to spend more time at the bottom. Widen your feet and try and get your body between your legs more so than sticking your butt back. I'm not as mobile as this guy but I do a warmup that looks somewhat like this before I squat and you can really increase mobility by spending lots of time sorta playing around at the bottom of your squat (weight to one side, forward, 1 leg, etc):

(he starts the squat warmup about 15 secs into the video)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexXySwLvrU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexXySwLvrU</a>

T0ddday · « **Reply #1649 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:36:48 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on February 12, 2013, 03:30:04 am

What about people with no choice but to squat low bar, like me, that have knee issues? Even attempting 2 reps of high bar squats is a ticket to go home with knee pain (but I have whatever stuff moving in my right knee).

You have a loose body in your knee? This injury prohibits high bar squatting but doesn't affect low-bar squatting or playing basketball, or repeated vertical jumping?

Might want to invest in some Rehband Knee sleeves and some olympic lifting shoes and see exactly what you can and can't do. Can you front squat? Can you high-bar squat above parallel?

I'm not trying to make the case that low-bar squatting is useless, just that the diminishing gains to athleticism seem to kick at much lower poundages than back squatting. If I had an athlete who could do anything but high-bar squat there are things I would have him doing before low bar squatting, that's all.

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Author Topic: a fast and explosive donkey! (Read 1104123 times)

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