Author Topic: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?  (Read 6022 times)

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LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 02:51:29 pm »
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Well remember I can't do high bar squats due to knee pain (with my troublesome right knee) - and apparently, doing low bar squats with the heels on the plates "kinda" brings on some knee pain there as well...

It appears the more quad I use (the more the knee goes forward) the more knee pain occurs.

It's pretty weird because having the heels elevated should actually allow me to stay more erect and have my knees travel LESS forward than without the heels elevated.

I plan to get some weightlifting shoes in the near future and see what good they do.

And yeah, for the swings - it's hard to measure progress but the thing is - is that so important? It's not like I train for a swings competition or anything - what's important is the training effect of them. I'll just try to do them as fast as possible every time and that's that.

 Its important to progress on everything man, you can do it with swings, youll have to make sure youre either using a heavier bell, or more speed/power/reps/volume with the same one. 

 Its not worth the knee pain to try and push your knees further forward and stay more vertical, youll get as much or more out of squatting the way you were.  Why are you changing it? I remember you having really solid form on your squats....
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LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2012, 03:07:15 pm »
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 Also, something measurable, that is not so dependent on the rack position is the single leg hang clean.

 For a single leg guy, this will teach you to use you hips specific to your endeavor, and develop a strong stable landing unilaterally.

  Do some single leg bounds, then do 3 x 5 each leg slhc with only the bar, focus on being explosive as fuck and really sticking the landing.  Then go do another set of bounds.  Note the difference in hip activity as well as ankle stability.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhYq20EgqW4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhYq20EgqW4</a>
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Raptor

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 03:43:44 pm »
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I'd do them but I have this terrible tendency of using the lowerback when doing cleans. I actually "raise the chest" when I pull in the clean instead of using the hips... I'm terribly flawed movement wise. At least this is what I feel. I do the same thing with deadlifts - raise the hips, bend the back, raise the chest up.

The only movement where I'm using my hips somewhat well is a one-leg jump.

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 04:14:56 pm »
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I'd do them but I have this terrible tendency of using the lowerback when doing cleans. I actually "raise the chest" when I pull in the clean instead of using the hips... I'm terribly flawed movement wise. At least this is what I feel. I do the same thing with deadlifts - raise the hips, bend the back, raise the chest up.

The only movement where I'm using my hips somewhat well is a one-leg jump.

are you sure youre not doing the same thing when you  jump?  One thing about using the low back in dynamic lifts is, it tends to show more there, as its a slower movment, however youll likely see it in all other movement as well, like sprints and jumps. 

The good thing about the slower movements in the weight room is, its easier to correct there, and once youve built strength with the correct movement pattern, it will carry over to the field/court as well. 
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Raptor

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 04:31:39 pm »
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You bet I'm doing the same thing. I feel like I'm not using my leg strength/power at all in my jumps. I just raise the chest and "jump" which is as retarded as it gets. I know it doesn't look like that in my videos but living in my own body (weirdly enough) I can tell you that's true.

The thing is - how do you correct it? That's why I liked a lot what Rippetoe said about the low bar hip-driven squat. When I heard him say "don't drive the chest up, use your hips" for the first time, I was like "bingo, that's what I have been doing all along".

Now don't live under the impression that I was "manipulated" into thinking that - I know I have always "raised my chest" but it never occured to me how to put it into words.

The problem is - I have no idea how to cure it.

When I deadlift I raise the chest.
When I clean I raise the chest.
When I squat I don't though, weirdly enough. I put a lot of quad load instead (I don't really push my hips back because I'd just fall backwards)
When I KB swing I can use my hips pretty well.
When I RDL I raise the chest. I feel the same tendency to fall on the back when I RDL as in the squat (or even more really) - it's really, REALLY annoying.

Any ideas on how to fix this? Box squatting could be an answer but I don't have any boxes in the gym and using a bench that's very narrow I could easily miss it and just have a big accident happen. In fact, because of my fear of missing the bench, when I was doing "bench squats" I was even more quad dominant than in a free squat.

So as you can see, I'm a really weird kind of guy. But hey, you already knew that didn't you? :P

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 07:11:03 pm »
+1
You bet I'm doing the same thing. I feel like I'm not using my leg strength/power at all in my jumps. I just raise the chest and "jump" which is as retarded as it gets. I know it doesn't look like that in my videos but living in my own body (weirdly enough) I can tell you that's true.

The thing is - how do you correct it? That's why I liked a lot what Rippetoe said about the low bar hip-driven squat. When I heard him say "don't drive the chest up, use your hips" for the first time, I was like "bingo, that's what I have been doing all along".

 That is NOT the same thing as driving with the glutes, hes cueing a hamstring dominant move if anything there, and vectors are much different than a  jump as well.  You want to learn to use your GLUTES, to drive yourself UP, not drive your ass into the air leaned over.

A true "glute dominant squat" would look like a good morning.  You would sit way back, and not drive UP, youd drive your hips FORWARD like a kettlebell swing. 

This is similar to Lou Simmons reccomendations, however its NOT what we use the squat for as we NEED KNEE EXTENSION FOR ATHLETIC MOVEMENT AND THE SQUAT TRAINS THAT WELL. 

The glutes primary role is at the end rom, when the quads are at a huge leverage disadvantage to contribute.  The glutes are also put under a maximum stretch this way, and definitely get tons of stimulation.

 This is why front squats hammer the glutes as hard if not harder than squats. 

Quote
Now don't live under the impression that I was "manipulated" into thinking that - I know I have always "raised my chest" but it never occured to me how to put it into words.

The problem is - I have no idea how to cure it.

When I deadlift I raise the chest.
When I clean I raise the chest.
When I squat I don't though, weirdly enough. I put a lot of quad load instead (I don't really push my hips back because I'd just fall backwards)
When I KB swing I can use my hips pretty well.
When I RDL I raise the chest. I feel the same tendency to fall on the back when I RDL as in the squat (or even more really) - it's really, REALLY annoying.

Any ideas on how to fix this? Box squatting could be an answer but I don't have any boxes in the gym and using a bench that's very narrow I could easily miss it and just have a big accident happen. In fact, because of my fear of missing the bench, when I was doing "bench squats" I was even more quad dominant than in a free squat.

So as you can see, I'm a really weird kind of guy. But hey, you already knew that didn't you? :P

Everything you think regarding how to fix glute driven movement is wrong man.  The key to fixing this is keeping your PELVIS IN NEUTRAL.   In a sl clean, your torso and hips should make a straight line, not in lordosis.  

When you load this way, you have no choice other than glute driven extension.  The squat is primarily a KNEE HINGE.  Youre supposed to raise the fucking chest.  

What Rippetoe  is doing, is getting the hamstrings tight and more involved, making sure they are on stretch through a longer part of the rom.  The glutes work regardless, as long as youre deep enough.  

To fix it youre going to have to get strong in that movement pattern, with SLOW movements first, then progress down the speed spectrum.  I would start with glute bridges prior to cleans or sl cleans/sl bridge.  

This really fires up that movement pattern, and helps the glute driven extension.  Once you get that down, progress to sl bound complex w glute bridge (sl).

  The thing with the sl clean and sl box squat is, they tend to do this automatically, if you do them right.  Ive seen lots of sprints and  jumps change for the better with those exercises alone.

 You have to do whatever you choose CONSISTENTLY, and RIGHT though.  Post videos, when you see it, it always helps.  You can get this though, its not some super elusive thing to master.  

Ive taught some pretty slow minded individuals how to use their glutes in athletic movement before, its really not as hard as youre thinking it is.  

 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 07:16:01 pm by LanceSTS »
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Raptor

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2012, 07:42:34 pm »
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Yeah but whenever I hear "keep the back flat" I automatically go into lordosis (if we understand the same thing by lordosis which is this):



Otherwise I don't know how to do it. If I am to keep the chest high, shoulders back, I will automatically go into lordosis. Probably being in a pretty pronounced anterior tilt doesn't help the matters either. To be honest with you, I have no idea how to keep a "flat back". It probably requires a ton of lower abdominal squeeze but that's very difficult/impossible for me (I don't really know how to do it and again, the anterior pelvic tilt probably has to do something with this as well).

I have had some success though keeping a flat back and forcing some "posterior pelvic tilt" so to speak during KB swings by tucking my chin down and pushing the hips forward and doing my swings like that. It's very similar to the "American Deadlift" that Bret Contreras was advocating.

Meaning this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAVMj6GJwfY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAVMj6GJwfY</a>

So I guess I have to find a way to apply this ^^^ knowledge to everything I do.

LanceSTS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2012, 10:34:38 pm »
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^ exactly.  Seems like you have a good understanding of what you NEED to do, now just apply it.  Engaging the low abs is key, once you get that down youre on the right path.

 I would go through and read everything you can that alexv has posted on this, on here, tvs, his site, and db hammer.  He basically translates the korfist wgf stuff into simple terms with his (imo) easier to learn progressions.
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LBSS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2012, 09:49:04 am »
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I also wonder what would happen with a similar thread on Rippetoe's forum.

search "incorporating the half squat into an athletic program"

oh man, that takes me back. halcyon days, those were.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Raptor

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2012, 02:49:17 pm »
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I also wonder what would happen with a similar thread on Rippetoe's forum.

search "incorporating the half squat into an athletic program"

oh man, that takes me back. halcyon days, those were.

I didn't find anything, I need to answer "3 non random questions" to do a search and I said "fuck it, whatever".

LBSS

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2012, 02:50:52 pm »
+1
I also wonder what would happen with a similar thread on Rippetoe's forum.

search "incorporating the half squat into an athletic program"

oh man, that takes me back. halcyon days, those were.

I didn't find anything, I need to answer "3 non random questions" to do a search and I said "fuck it, whatever".

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=incorporating+the+half+squat+into+an+athletic+program
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

handstand + backflip + flag

Raptor

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2012, 04:23:59 pm »
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I also wonder what would happen with a similar thread on Rippetoe's forum.

search "incorporating the half squat into an athletic program"

oh man, that takes me back. halcyon days, those were.

I didn't find anything, I need to answer "3 non random questions" to do a search and I said "fuck it, whatever".

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=incorporating+the+half+squat+into+an+athletic+program

Thanks.

To be honest, it's a pretty interesting read so far.

Raptor

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Re: Hip thrusts instead of deadlifts during Starting Strength?
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2012, 08:47:13 pm »
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I have to reiterate - it's a very interesting thread so far. I'm here right now:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=24176&p=268895#post268895