Author Topic: Push Press and Basketball  (Read 11130 times)

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LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 03:10:06 am »
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This might be a stupid question, but I'm curious.  You know how shoulder power contributes to vertical jump height and to work on it people do arm swings like when Adarqui used to do his plate swings which basically mimics the same swing motion in jumps. 

Push presses aren't the same motion as plate swings, but does improving push press help with the same effect that improving plate swings will have specifically on VJ's?

Think of it from the muscles being trained instead of the exact movement.  Also, watch how people jump with the ball, which is what you will have to do in an actual game, assuming youre not catching lobs on a regular basis.  Lay up, jump shot, dunk with the ball in hand, watch that movement.
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Raptor

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 05:23:44 am »
-2
This might be a stupid question, but I'm curious.  You know how shoulder power contributes to vertical jump height and to work on it people do arm swings like when Adarqui used to do his plate swings which basically mimics the same swing motion in jumps. 

Push presses aren't the same motion as plate swings, but does improving push press help with the same effect that improving plate swings will have specifically on VJ's?

Think of it from the muscles being trained instead of the exact movement.  Also, watch how people jump with the ball, which is what you will have to do in an actual game, assuming youre not catching lobs on a regular basis.  Lay up, jump shot, dunk with the ball in hand, watch that movement.

A jump and a shrug, baby!

T0ddday

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 12:41:34 pm »
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If you can standing press 225, you can bench 315 without even trying... and yea, I would rather have someone with a huge push press than a big bench.  What was wrong is the notion that a 315 bench is common among basketball players, thats not true at all.

Agreed.  Might take a few weeks of training to realize the strength though...  I had a max bench of 275 and didn't bench for about a year and instead just did power snatches, push jerks, and standing DB push presses...  I went back to benching and hit 295x3 after three weeks.

Question, what do you think of standing DB push presses?  Previously shoulder injuries make barbell push presses difficult, I can do heavy jerks and presses but have trouble doing multiple reps with significant weight because the negative is painful.  Dropping the bar is fine but requires it be cleaned to shoulder level again...  Do you think standing DB push presses with moderate weight and repetitions is sufficient if paired with some heavy singles in push jerk or push press?

LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 02:25:24 pm »
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If you can standing press 225, you can bench 315 without even trying... and yea, I would rather have someone with a huge push press than a big bench.  What was wrong is the notion that a 315 bench is common among basketball players, thats not true at all.

Agreed.  Might take a few weeks of training to realize the strength though...  I had a max bench of 275 and didn't bench for about a year and instead just did power snatches, push jerks, and standing DB push presses...  I went back to benching and hit 295x3 after three weeks.

Question, what do you think of standing DB push presses?  Previously shoulder injuries make barbell push presses difficult, I can do heavy jerks and presses but have trouble doing multiple reps with significant weight because the negative is painful.  Dropping the bar is fine but requires it be cleaned to shoulder level again...  Do you think standing DB push presses with moderate weight and repetitions is sufficient if paired with some heavy singles in push jerk or push press?

Yea that would work fine, the only problem with it would be the uncomfortable loading of the dumbells.  having to swing up a couple of 100 lb dumbells gets old after while.  If the straight bar aggravates your shoulders though I think dumbells are a good idea.
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Raptor

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 03:12:18 pm »
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Can anybody post a video with the right form on the dumbbell push press? There are so many out there that I don't know which one is actually the correct form...

LBSS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 12:12:23 am »
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I remember someone who said "people of the past had much more interest in the standing overhead press vs. pushing something from the chest while laying horizontal on a bench".


there were much less shoulder injuries back then
as well, due to the balanced nature of prioritizing the OHP and using the bench press more sparingly.

really? seems like kind of an odd claim.

whatever, just being anal.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 12:36:38 am »
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I remember someone who said "people of the past had much more interest in the standing overhead press vs. pushing something from the chest while laying horizontal on a bench".


there were much less shoulder injuries back then
as well, due to the balanced nature of prioritizing the OHP and using the bench press more sparingly.

really? seems like kind of an odd claim.

whatever, just being anal.

Im talking about the competitive lifters that competed with the press in competition, vs the bench press now.  A few years back this was a pretty large ordeal, some coaches claiming the press injured lifters shoulders, and thats why it went away in competition.  

There are actual statistics logged that have been posted many times in different places, showing the bench related issues vs the press.

 The second argument that got dismissed was the press was pushed out of competition due to back injuries, which also is not true.  It got too hard to  judge fairly, as more lifters got more fluent with the torso lean and hip drive.  It was too hard to tell if the knees actually did anything, and some countries that were "favorites" could get white lights, while others would get reds for the same thing.

 either in a livespill or an article on tnation where the statistics are actually posted as well fairly recently, I believe it was CT that posted it.  Its not hard to see though, go to 2 or 3 powerlifting meets, and youre  bound to get to witness a pec tear, or a rotator cuff tear, from the  bench press.  This  just wasnt as much an issue when there were/is a more  balanced ratio of pressing.

edit: If my memory is correct, Starr also wrote some similar things via the press and shoulder health. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:38:47 am by LanceSTS »
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LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2012, 01:07:32 am »
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 some more stuff on the ohp and shoulder health. 

I Don't Agree...
by Christian Thibaudeau - 02/09/2011
Good coaches can sometimes disagree on some points even though they are generally in agreement on other subjects.

And both can boast a wide range of success stories, making them reliable in their opinion (you can't argue with success).

Doesn't mean that one is "more wrong" than the other or that both are going at wr against each other.

Joe DeFranco's latest article includes an opinion that I don't agree with, and I'm saying that while having nothing but tremendous respect for the guy.

He mentions that we should avoid the overhead press if you are trying to build your shoulders. That only one out of X athlete can perform it safely.

Since the overhead press is the cornerstone of most of my programs, I don't agree (obviously).

My shoulders were never healthier than when I competed as an olympic lifter, a time where overhead pressing, the push press and jerk were roughly 25% of my training.

In fact I never had any shoulder pains before going away from doing a lot of overhead work. And as soon as I started putting an emphasis on various forms of overhead pressing instead of bench pressing my shoulder problems went away.

And I'm not the only one, Jim Wendler told me the exact same thing when I visited him and Dave in Ohio.

Glenn Pendlay, who is an amazing coach who works with athletes from many sports also put overhead work at a premium, specifically the push press.

And as a group, olympic lifters generally have VERY healthy shoulders despite doing overhead work for 50% of their training volume.

It is my opinion that those who have shoulder problems when overhead pressing simply use bad technique or have flexibiility issues.

Yesterday 01:09
Personally I tend to agree with Glenn Pendlay and believe that the push press is the suprior overhead movement. It bypasses the weak zone, which is also the position where most injuries can occur. From experience it's the best movement to build the shoulders.

I also noticed with myself and dozens of clients, that gains in overhead strength are highly correlated with gains in bench pressing strength; I had my biggest bench press gains when I did an overhead press spec.
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LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2012, 01:12:06 am »
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  http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tabid/130/EntryId/719/Top-Five-Pressing-Issues.aspx

from the article:

" I agree with my colleague strength coach Bill Starr that, without question, the main cause of shoulder problems in strength trained athletes is the lack of overhead pressing work."


« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 01:30:58 am by LanceSTS »
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Mutumbo000

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2012, 02:23:25 am »
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Interesting thread. Personally i've been neglecting overhead work for a while but this thread has convinced me to start adding it in as some extra assistance. I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

Raptor

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2012, 04:17:53 am »
-2
I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2012, 10:13:50 am »
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I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

how is  it "safer"?
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Raptor

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2012, 10:44:00 am »
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I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

how is  it "safer"?

It's not.

Duuuuuuuuuuuh... that was the point...

Man I really need to use some sarcasm emoticons or something

LanceSTS

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2012, 03:15:11 pm »
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I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

how is  it "safer"?

It's not.

Duuuuuuuuuuuh... that was the point...

Man I really need to use some sarcasm emoticons or something

I thought thats what you were doing at first, wanted to make sure though.  ;)
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Raptor

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Re: Push Press and Basketball
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2012, 03:47:44 pm »
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Wasn't Rippetoe saying that out of 11 yearly fatalities in the US due to weightlifting, 9 are during a bench press?