Author Topic: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar  (Read 11784 times)

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FP

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Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« on: December 25, 2022, 03:08:53 pm »
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#Invalid YouTube Link#
https://youtube.com/shorts/FOdjcXi-AxQ?feature=share

Edit: Shit I forgot to say, the dude doing these has the 400m hurdles WR i think

Comment I wrote :
Quote
He is able to focus on the middle/upper RoM (more specific for sprints), applying more force there, because the bar bouncing does most of the work for the lower RoM. I think the weight also begins to decelerate at the uppermost RoM, so more force has to be generated at the RoM where he is the strongest. Its more specific for sprint power than jump squats or hang power cleans because he can do the reps in quicker succession.

I think this lift is likely amazing for track speed, maybe even acceleration in sports. The way the overload is different at the bottom, middle and top of the lift I believe might have a higher carryover for speed than any other lift i can think of (belt squat might be similar)
While this movement itself would be pretty tough to set up, this really inspires me to experiment with band tensions (somewhat similar to this), there might be some potential for carryover to athletic movement. I do remember Kelly Baggett saying they were pretty taxing on the CNS though
« Last Edit: December 25, 2022, 06:19:17 pm by FP »

CoolColJ

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2022, 11:06:57 am »
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Still much slower than actual sprinting, so actual transfer for power likely won't work.
Not really good for increasing explosive strength

Seems like a good circus trick  ;D


FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2022, 01:30:07 pm »
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Not sure what you mean. You train at around 30% 1RM for max power, and at 80% 1RM on the other end of the FV curve to recruit high threshold motor units. Both are necessary. IMO, While the movement speed being similar to sport can be an important thing for specificity, it is just one of many factors for carryover. IMO, At the very least the specificity of this movement would be higher if used in something like a french contast.

Anyway it looks like based on the rep range the training may have to do with both power and local endurance, but its tough to say. The TUT  is kind of low for each rep, so maybe the recommended 2-3 reps for training at 80% 1RM are more stretched out in this movement.



CoolColJ

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2022, 03:02:05 pm »
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My point being - sprinting is fast, and strength work is slow, and builds structural changes.
There really seems to be no point in working in the middle


FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2022, 10:47:33 am »
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Its not unheard of for high level sprinters to perform something like heavy squats, even though something like a full squat is a lot less specific to sprinting than this. I believe this has the potential to overload certain areas you cant do with sprinting alone or most other lifts.
And I wouldnt exactly call this lift slow, it fits well within that zone of 80% or less I mentioned. 55-80% lifting and 80-87% lifting are used in different blocks in the Triphasic Training manual for training athletes by Cal Dietz, which is a reputable source

CoolColJ

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2023, 03:40:26 am »
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The Keiser  stuff would work better for this kind of thing, since there is no weight involved.

I see Su Bingtian does a lot of this stuff and he is the fastest accelerator ever over 60m and under.
He did a lot of Keiser seated calf raises to bring up his soleus power.


FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2023, 05:35:51 pm »
+1
Yeah that machine is awesome. Su is definitely someone to study as far as joining lifting and speed work. I feel like with attempting to make lifts specific its pretty hit or miss, maybe some of the criteria for specificity are met really well while others are so far from the movement its use becomes really limited. And understanding and applying the structural change component is pretty tough as well.

But I think the upper 1/8 of a squat is potentially so difficult to maximally overload, the leverage is so good, that for an elite speed athlete, maybe even a leg press would be maxed out before approaching overloading the 1/8 RoM. In my mind thats the potential magic of a very well set up variation of this lift - tension generated earlier in the lift, but max force having to be applied at the very top due to the bar bounce no longer assisting at that RoM. But even if my theory is right, getting the loading and height correct, mastering technique and having to probably make adjustments to avoid injury, more likely than not it would be pretty impractical.

FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2023, 09:53:32 pm »
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CoolColJ

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2023, 10:16:46 am »
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Looks just like a belt squat

FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2023, 03:37:18 pm »
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I mean yeah, basically. Ive only used a pit shark/belt squat setup once, but imo its also much more specific than popular lifts. If I get a landmine setup maybe ill be able to do a variant of it.

https://youtu.be/QjTgRyptaKI
So looks like the lift is 400kg?

But something I just realized: looking at his feet, the somewhat unnatural (slower) rhythm in which they move, the high level of tension in them and how they seem to be driving the movement. Maybe its for the feet.

One of the main movements Cal Dietz uses is a split squat w safety bar and front heel elevated, hands holding rack in front for stability. Supposedly it overloads the arch with the heel elevated (in addition to training quads and p chain more specifically, going through the balls of the foot, not the heels) and high level athletes can get decent RoM with 500-600lbs +

seifullaah73

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2023, 07:45:56 am »
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It seems to be a way of loading the eccentric and concentric movement, as he puts effort into the pull and then the push, try and create rapid contraction eccentric and concentric as rapidly as possible. Recruit motor units and develop quickness in that short movement. Aim is to maintain the pendulum like movement else if not enough force placed downwards, the height will start to reduce until not possible to lift up anymore as is very heavy.
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil
Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2023, 12:39:41 am »
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It seems to be a way of loading the eccentric and concentric movement, as he puts effort into the pull and then the push, try and create rapid contraction eccentric and concentric as rapidly as possible. Recruit motor units and develop quickness in that short movement. Aim is to maintain the pendulum like movement else if not enough force placed downwards, the height will start to reduce until not possible to lift up anymore as is very heavy.

Yeah, that's an interesting observation, his pushing the lift into the ground determines how high it will travel back up. I can't think of any other lifts where there's this kind of push during the eccentric phase. I guess he can technically regulate how high the bar will bounce, so that opens up the option for each individual rep be a different intensity, controlled by how much he pushes the weight into the ground.

CoolColJ

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2023, 11:47:58 am »
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Well modern Keiser machines have > gravity eccentric loads, and so do those flywheel spinning disc machines, like Kbox, where the harder you do the cocentric, the more the eccentric pulls back at you

seifullaah73

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2023, 04:16:16 pm »
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Well modern Keiser machines have > gravity eccentric loads, and so do those flywheel spinning disc machines, like Kbox, where the harder you do the cocentric, the more the eccentric pulls back at you

But in the above video, he seems to be putting effort into the concentric and the eccentric, rather than let the weight drop down he pushes it down and then pull it up and repeat to maintain bar height.
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil
Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

FP

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Re: Sprinting SPP ballistic trap bar
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2023, 03:41:00 am »
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Well modern Keiser machines have > gravity eccentric loads, and so do those flywheel spinning disc machines, like Kbox, where the harder you do the cocentric, the more the eccentric pulls back at you

Dang I didnt see this post, but i see what you mean, didnt realize thats how those machines work. That does seem super practical. Shame those machines are kind of rare. Yeah I can imagine a machine like that being able to be custom programmed to different loads at whatever RoM and timing at some point in the future.

Not trying to be argumentative, just attempting to further the discussion, but I wonder how much and what type of carryover is gained and lost with more machine type exercises vs free weights where balance is a factor. Like why is the back squat so popular vs a smith machine squat. That seems like a pretty basic and too broad to answer clearly discussion topic, but I was thinking it might have to do with more variability in the BS.

So like in a jump theres a lot of slight variations in technique every single  jump, and if some variations get pushed to extremes they might have traumatic injury risk, so the GTO inhibits power production to account for the possibility of injury. And Im guessing a back squat also has more of these possible slight unintenional variations, which might help prepare for those variations in jumping scenarios, while a smith machine squat is so much more consistent that it doesn't.