Author Topic: Squats vs. Performance  (Read 5143 times)

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Dreyth

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2013, 05:16:50 pm »
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i find it crazy how we still dont exactly know what soreness is and what exactly causes it
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AlexV

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2013, 09:51:18 pm »
+1
Bondarchuk said what T0dday just said; that improving general strength only helps beginners and does not help with elite athletes. he syudied throwers though, and found that the strongest squatters wwre definitely not the best throwers. the best throwers certainly were nlt weak howeevr in the squat.


I think this is dead on.

Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes.  Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.

Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes.  So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what.  I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat. 

So then the question is What is a squat?
The other question is why are we squatting? 

I call my variation a performance squat.  I started using it after watching my fastest athletes squat and move.  This is what they generally gravitated to.  Cal Deitz uses a similar squat that he calls the sport back squat.  Are we full squat, ATG, powerlifting, front, hi bar, lo bar, performance?

Then thinking about levels of athletes.  Beginners and intermediaes may benefit most from full squats or SS style.  Even advanced athletes in the general strength phase or when in strength maintenance mode (keep in mingd any strength training is GPP).  Beginners and intermediates should get after it.  Advanced could program like easy strength or even easier strength.  This way they lift heavy, not hard.  the fatigue doesnt interfere with the SPP.  The performance/sport squat is more of an SPP squat and suited as we start focusing on competition.

why are we squtting is to increase strength, to move the force velocity curve over, which improves power output.  You can get stronger in squats, lunges, deadlifts, etc... doesn;t really matter.its strengthening the thighs and hips that matters.

wow this rambled a bit

Moral of the story is get stronger in the hips and thighs (squats and deads are most time efficient)  As you advance decrease the volume of these lifts in the program.  Still lift heavy, but not hard.  shift more focus onto spp type stuff.  Unless you judge sporting imprvement on an annual or semi annual basis (you get better 1-2x/year) you are an intermediate and strength will still help.    somewhere around an advanced intermediate stage move towards a less voluminous approach.
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TKXII

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2013, 02:04:10 am »
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I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off.  A few points to remember:

It's not a little on, it's a lot on, but unfortunately there aren't studies that talk about this stuff - that's probably because most athletes don't spend the bulk of their time with 85+% 1RM training on a weekly basis . . . but my obsessive nature led to me lifting 85% percent basically 100% of the time and that made me slower, it's as obvious as night and day how quickly a heavy lifting session affects my athleticism and agility.

Quote
1) He doesn't sprint very much.

That would not matter in my experience at all. Running 5-6 days a week would be great for reinforcing a pull dominant sprint pattern, but it would kill my squats. Every time I squat it would reinforce a quad dominant pattern and it would just be masked better by running more often.

Quote
2) He also doesn't squat very much.  Relatively.   This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat...  What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints.   Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.   

Oly squatting is much lower volume than squatting I did. I maxed out on sets of doubles/triples every time I squatted until I started doing higher volume, then I still maxed.  My relative squat at my best was 2.12. Not a lot, but I also have long levers, and used a pretty narrow stance (heels 8inches apart) so honestly if you look at the moment arms I'm lifting a lot more than someone else with shorter levers.

What is residual fatigue? If I raced against the hamsrting dominant 2012 version of me he would beat me past 30m with the same amount of "residual fatigue" I had any day. I didn't even need to try to sprint hard to run really fast, because the speed was just there.
[/quote]



I think this is dead on.

Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes.  Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.

Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes.  So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what.  I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat. 

I think what he would say the moral of the story was was to build some general strength until you aren't weak then do sport specific training exclusively because general strength training doesn't help any further after a certain point. So 1/3 squats yes.

And I'm gonna start doing that more, 1/3 squats (well I'm thinking knee angle of like 120 degrees here), I find a better potentiation from my 1/3 squat jumps compared to my 1/2 squat jumps (above parallel, about 90 degrees).
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

T0ddday

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2013, 03:42:12 am »
0
I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off.  A few points to remember:

It's not a little on, it's a lot on, but unfortunately there aren't studies that talk about this stuff - that's probably because most athletes don't spend the bulk of their time with 85+% 1RM training on a weekly basis . . . but my obsessive nature led to me lifting 85% percent basically 100% of the time and that made me slower, it's as obvious as night and day how quickly a heavy lifting session affects my athleticism and agility.

Quote
1) He doesn't sprint very much.

That would not matter in my experience at all. Running 5-6 days a week would be great for reinforcing a pull dominant sprint pattern, but it would kill my squats. Every time I squat it would reinforce a quad dominant pattern and it would just be masked better by running more often.

Quote
2) He also doesn't squat very much.  Relatively.   This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat...  What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints.   Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.   

Oly squatting is much lower volume than squatting I did. I maxed out on sets of doubles/triples every time I squatted until I started doing higher volume, then I still maxed.  My relative squat at my best was 2.12. Not a lot, but I also have long levers, and used a pretty narrow stance (heels 8inches apart) so honestly if you look at the moment arms I'm lifting a lot more than someone else with shorter levers.

What is residual fatigue? If I raced against the hamsrting dominant 2012 version of me he would beat me past 30m with the same amount of "residual fatigue" I had any day. I didn't even need to try to sprint hard to run really fast, because the speed was just there.



I think this is dead on.

Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes.  Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.

Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes.  So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what.  I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat. 





Certainly you could be dead on, but I hesitate to say something is a lot on when n = 1.   The amount of genes I have looked at in lab and been SURE that they were disease hits until we got more data..... Many.


Huh?  Why does it not matter that you don't sprint much?   That's why it totally would matter.  I was making your point for you, eg its possible squats made you slower despite the fact I have many many examples of sprinters for whom squatting didn't make them slower.   The point is it wouldn't kill your squats if it is all you know....  Sprinters sprint.  That's what they do from jump.  Then someone makes us squat after practices and we start squatting.  We can't tell if sprinting is killing our squats because we didn't squat without sprinting ever.   But it doesn't necessarily make sprinters slower.  It makes you slower.   One reason might be that you are not adding squats to sprinters program, but trying to sprint while switching to prioritizing squats... That's not common. 


What volume is oly squatting?  I don't know about all oly squatting but the only gym I ever trained at (broz gym in vegas) had them twice daily workouts which were something along the lines of work out to a max, 6 triples, 2x5.   High volume and intensity and they do it for years.  I imagine they must get somewhat accustomed to it.   One interesting bit of info is the coach of that gym absolutely HATED sprinting/lunges or anything unilateral because it "built the wrong coordination".   Just one opinion though, at Waxman's gym in LA he has his lifters run intervals every so often in GPP.


One thing I either don't understand or don't agree with is these terms...   Does hamstring dominant mean faster?  What is a pull dominant pattern?  I don't understand why sprinting is "pulling".   Sure the hamstrings act as a hip-extensor but pulling and pawback are universally regarded as horrible cues for sprinters because they actually encourage GCT.    Just look at Asafa Powell and Michael Johnson run.  They are both sprinters who run with MV of close to 13 m/s.  Ridiculously fast.  But the motor pattern that they use to achieve it is pretty different.   I think this is part of the problem with your statement... Sprinting is more diverse than squatting; it's possible that what you experience might not be the same for someone who runs differently.... Not as much true in squatting.

Residual fatigue is just the point that you can't really disentangle fatigue and aberrant motor patterning because acquiring the aberrant motor pattern ALSO induces fatigue.   If you took this really fast 2012 version of yourself and got the same amount of residual fatigue to do this test.... Wouldn't the 2012 version of you now be slow (because you got the fatigue by doing squats???)....   That's what I dont get. 


TKXII

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2013, 11:25:22 pm »
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Certainly you could be dead on, but I hesitate to say something is a lot on when n = 1. 

it's more than one. I have posted articles where people talk about quad dominance from squatting. I have described it in more detail than anything i have read however.

Huh?  Why does it not matter that you don't sprint much?

Because the idea is that if it competes with the motor pattern, it's counterproductive, so just sprinting more will mask the problem, rather than fix it, and thus it isn't worth doing.

That's why it totally would matter.  I was making your point for you, eg its possible squats made you slower despite the fact I have many many examples of sprinters for whom squatting didn't make them slower. 

There are very few sprinters squatting like me, long levers with a knee dominant full squat. Most athletes who say they squat do 1/2 squats, and I hypothesize that the way those exercises wire the motor patterns are different enough to affect sprinting form significantly. However even a hip dominant squat for me makes me feel quad dominant just because squats are quad dominant.

Perhaps in athletes who are naturally hip dominant, squats feel different than they do for me. I'm naturally quad dominant.

One reason might be that you are not adding squats to sprinters program, but trying to sprint while switching to prioritizing squats... That's not common. 

Yea I agree with this. But doing it the other way around I feel would still affect me.

What volume is oly squatting? 

I was referring to a training program where athletes work up to a single, a couple times a day, no doubles or trples or anything like that. Max singles, 14 times a week. But I'm not very well versed on oly squat methods, i'm sure some are high volumes. However I thnk powerlifters tend to use much higher volume than oly. Broz gym sounds like a hybrid. I think if I was JUST squatting I could do that, but not if I'm doing a bunch of other stuff.


One interesting bit of info is the coach of that gym absolutely HATED sprinting/lunges or anything unilateral because it "built the wrong coordination".   Just one opinion though, at Waxman's gym in LA he has his lifters run intervals every so often in GPP.

Yea that sounds exactly like what I'm talking about. When worked on getting to 315 in the backsquat, just one sprint workout could ruin an entire week's worth of training. I felt weaker in coming out of the hole, and "felt" more like doing half squats and jumps, from being more explosive. That occurred if I did longer sprints like 150s, not speed work as much. So this competing motor pattern idea affected me not just when trying to improve sprints but when trying to get stronger in the gym.

The only exercise that was not affected oddly enough (for legs) was lunges. They got consistently stronger despite major plateaus in squats.

One thing I either don't understand or don't agree with is these terms...   Does hamstring dominant mean faster?  What is a pull dominant pattern?  I don't understand why sprinting is "pulling".   Sure the hamstrings act as a hip-extensor but pulling and pawback are universally regarded as horrible cues for sprinters because they actually encourage GCT. 

I agree... and I'll take your word for it, but I've read that's a bad cue too.

By pull dominant I mean I'm using my hamstrings more, meaning there is greater knee extension occurring before each footstrike. When I'm quad dominant, it's as if the hamstring is frozen slightly, or restricted, and I don't naturally extend the knee as much, and I assume that means i'm using my quads more.

I am not sure if that implies I am applying more horizontal forces when I'm hamstring dominant, versus quad dominant, but that's a hypothesis.

No it doesn't mean I'm faster always when hamstring dominant, but my top speed form is very natural. Whereas these days in a quad dominant form it feels forced. I feel like if I'm hamstring dominant like in the past, my acceleration feels weaker however.

  Just look at Asafa Powell and Michael Johnson run.  They are both sprinters who run with MV of close to 13 m/s.  Ridiculously fast.  But the motor pattern that they use to achieve it is pretty different.   I think this is part of the problem with your statement... Sprinting is more diverse than squatting; it's possible that what you experience might not be the same for someone who runs differently.... Not as much true in squatting.

Good point, yea sprinting must be diverse, however in the past 3 years of squatting I've found it to be diverse too.

I first started squatting with a wider stance, I have assumed now that to mean my feet are around 15-18'' apart when measured at the heels.

I last year decided to move heels 8-10'' apart, but even then, the way my limbs moved weren't always the same. I felt distinct differences on different days in how my legs moved. In vibrams v barefeet it felt completely different; with vibrams my vmos would be really sore, but with barefeet my glutes would get pretty sore, and quads too but not vmos as directly.

But even in just barefeet sometimes my knees would fold more and I would feel in vmos... so it has been very diverse for me actually.


Residual fatigue is just the point that you can't really disentangle fatigue and aberrant motor patterning because acquiring the aberrant motor pattern ALSO induces fatigue.   If you took this really fast 2012 version of yourself and got the same amount of residual fatigue to do this test.... Wouldn't the 2012 version of you now be slow (because you got the fatigue by doing squats???)....   That's what I dont get.

Yea, i dno... i really really doubt residual fatigue from squatting made me feel slow, or that the aberrant motor patterning induces fatigue, i wouldn't call it "aberrant" though because the motor pattern was great for squats, but expressed itself on the track. I couldn't get rid of it. I could distinctly feel my hamstrings being inhibited by a lesser knee extension angle during the flight phase of sprinting, and I could not force it to happen, and if I did it wasn't the same. I also felt less explosive, my start also slowed.

Whereas before in early 2012, in a relaxed manner, my legs would naturally just extend, and straighten out beautifully with ease, my strides looked very aesthetic too. Now the same amount of residual fatigue wouldn't affect me imo because i didn't have residual fatigue. I think I can tell when my nervous system feels healthy - usually i have very high desire to lift to workout.

If I train a movement regularly, my nervous system wants to do that movement... like squats. If I stop doing squats and sprint a lot, when i'm recovered I want to sprint, and not squat, I believe this has something to do with the way motor patterns connect with the nervous system but I haven't seen any research on it. If I do more pullups more often, weighted pullups, when I'm recovered I have a strong desire to do weighted pullups. It's almost an addiction, it's as if the Ca++ channels after being depressed for a little bit while the muscles recover start to open up as strong as before in the muscles specific for that movement. This is another hypothesis of mine that has developed as well...

"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf