Author Topic: I like running  (Read 3599 times)

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Beeg

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I like running
« on: May 31, 2011, 10:47:39 pm »
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1:59.0 800 meters come at me bros


eh, I should probably put some real info....


sup guys, I'm a 16 years young and I like to run! basically, a really wise (and fast, 1:46 800 meters, 3:38 1500 meters, 3:58 mile) man told me if I really wanted to get good at the 800 meters, I should work on 2 things in the off-season: endurance and power. for endurance, I'm pretty weak but getting there, twice a day running, 60+ miles per week, etc. but for power I'm sorta clueless! he told me I should measure my vertical jump to see if I was getting anywhere.


thus, hello everyone! I'm here to get a' jumpin! I'm pretty much a raw beginner in this area so I could use some real schooling. my vert probably sucks and I'm only 5'4 so you probably won't see any dunking vids from me anytime soon, but who knows maybe if I get real good I might!


for those who care, here are my PRs

200m: 22.9 (handtimed so I'm probably slower)
400m: 50.6 (handtimed so I'm probably slower)
800m: 1:59.0 (my strongest PR imo)
1600m: 4:31 (never had ANY competition in the mile though, could probably go 4:25 or so)
3 miles cross country: 16:38 (year old PR from last fall, will be looking to smash in the spring--goal of 15:00 3 mile or 15:34 5k)


standing vertical: 22 inches.... not gonna lie it seems kinda low for a guy who can drop sub 23 in a 200. oh well, that means that there's a lot of improvement to be had!


that's all folks!
 :headbang:
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:20:35 am by Beeg »

Zetz

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Re: I like running
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 09:48:30 pm »
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That's intense, man. That is DANG good for a 16 year old. You got me beat by quite a bit even in the 200m, and I'm a sprinter... haha. If you moved to Utah (a relatively mediocre state speed-wise compared to some) where I compete you'd be probably be top 10 in any event up to the 800m. Not sure about the mile and that is of course assuming that 200m time is accurate.

So you're off to a great start! Keep up the work you've been doing. Adding some weightlifting can only help. Considering how fast your 200m time is, I'd say your a sprinter 800m runner. (That event, kinda like the 400m, is fairly split between ridiculously skinny endurance type dudes, and the buffer speedy guys)

Beeg

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Re: I like running
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 10:50:32 pm »
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thanks for the reply! but, I feel like I've got some explaining to do


(cliffs on the bottom of this novel but to any reader, I'd appreciate if you read the whole thing).....


my school is pretty heavy on the speed side. we've got 2 guys who can go 22.5 consistently in meets. one of em, who happens to have a pr of 21.9 FAT, also split 48.6 in the 4x400 relay..... so yeah, he's our best 200/400 guy. the other one, despite being completely new to track and having a suckish start, can go 11.1 in the 100. we've got another guy who's gone 11.3 in the 100 but his 200 and 400 times really drop off, as in 24+ and 55+


on the distance side.... well, there's me. I am the school record holder in the 800 and 1600, which is really sad because my times are NOTHING like school record times should look like. a proper 800 and 1600 would be 1:51 and 4:15 or so, but yeah no dice, 1:59 and 4:31. every meet I race the 800 and 1600 and leave the sprints to the other dudes. the 22.9 was in practice once. I was pacing the sprinters and they told me to go 25 for each 200. I'd never gone that fast before so I just assumed I'd have to go all out... ended up going too fast in 22.9. but, that's in practice and therefore stopwatch timed. I'd say it could be anywhere between 22.5-23.5, more likely on the 23.5 end of it, but I heard 22.9 so that's what I like to tell people :D the 400 PR was in the leading leg of a 4x400 relay so also hand timed (coach's split times) and could therefore also be a little bit off, anywhere from 50-51.

fwiw, I've also done 4x300m in 36-37 seconds each with 2 minutes rest in practice once, suggesting I probably have sub-50 second 400 speed or so, but never really got to run the event (only raced it once in the relay where I went 50.6)

tl;dr the sprint times are all hand-timed and therefore cannot be 100% trusted


but... they do give a rough estimate of my speed, which is all I really need as information as a 800m runner. I definitely agree with you that I'm more of a 400/800 guy than a 800/1600 guy, but then again I've been trained by sprint coaches for 4 years now and never been trained by a distance coach!



anyways, I've got a PATHETIC vertical (tested today, before a run so pretty fresh), and my 100 reeks pretty bad too (only ran it in one workout in practice, handtimed again, 11.5 so slower on average than my 200). these 2 things suggest that I have a LOT of work to do in the way of max. strength, for power production. I've read some vertical jump literature, and in a Q&A Kelly Maggett said that if you're a decent sprinter but a shitty jumper you probably have good max speed but bad acceleration and also bad explosiveness, and that strength training is the way to go. so you're DEFINITELY right that weightlifting can only help.


problem is.... I'm lost. I will share with you my 2 experiences with weightlifting. during spring break, the week before my breakout 800, there were some dumbbells up to 50 lbs. so grabbing a 40 pound dumbbell in each hand (it was all my hands could hold), I did bulgarian split squats 1x3 on each leg, stopping only because my grip gave way (I probably could have done maybe 1 or 2 more reps, not really sure, my legs were feeling a deep burn but not too bad). this was at the end of a 12 mile moderate-paced run, so my legs were kinda tired. a little bit of soreness the next day but I still went skiing for 7 hours and was able to run 8 miles at normal speed with no problems.

2nd experience. my friend who plays basketball invited me to the weight room with him. while he did his business, I squatted 3x5 of 135 lbs. then we went outside, "jogged" a 5:50 mile, ran some laps around the track backwards (3 of them), and then I ran 8 miles. legs were trashed the next day, so I took a day off. tried squatting again the day after, managed 1x3 of 120 pounds and my legs gave out. no running that day. my legs felt so trashed that I was going less than 5 miles a day, super slow, for the next 7 days. I decided that weightlifting was good, but it would take too much away from the running, which is more important to me. looking back, it was probably the backward laps because I do like 100 lunges a day and I'm never sore, and also I was able to 1leg squat +80 pounds and not be sore the next day.


thus, I put it in the back of my mind and concentrated on endurance. however, talking to a guy who went 1:46 in the 800, I feel like I should give it another shot. plus, colleges these days are recruiting 800 runners based on their 400 times, so it's greatly to my advantage to put down some fast ass 400 times... to improve that, the best way given my lack of power is weights. everyone always says jumping carries over perfectly to sprinting, so here I am, at (perceivably) the most hardcore jumping community on the internet!




so now that that super long background is out of the way, what would you recommend I do to get started with lifting, something hard enough to increase my strength (can be super slow, I'm patient) while still allowing me to put emphasis on the running?



cliffs:
I'm weak as fuhhh
I wanna be able to increase strength by weightlifting, but still put an emphasis on the running, like still running twice a day everyday
....help?





« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 10:57:57 pm by Beeg »

Zetz

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Re: I like running
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 12:47:46 am »
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I would never claim to be an expert on any of this, I've only just graduated high school. I'm not a coach either, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The only thing I have going for me is that I've had to learn a lot about my sport to get good. As a freshman, my 200m was never under 27 sec. Always slower than 1 min on the 400m. But I loved the events so I worked crazy hard to get good. I never got amazing, but I made some pretty good improvements and I learned A LOT about running. (But not much over 800m)

From what you've said so far, at least from what I know, you're definitely a 400-800m guy. You have the speed and endurance for it, even if your start isn't so great. Good thing about that is you can only get better from here out on both events. Here's the deal, even if you think your 100m sucks and your mile is sub-par... you still have great legs for just about any kind of running. Which just means you can hold your in pretty much any of the running events. (though probably not in any of the jumps) So you'd probably be most competitive in the intermediate events. (conveniently the 400m and 800m, or maybe even the 300m hurdles if you got your technique down. ~36 or 37 is DAMN fast at your age)


I can't give you a lifting program. You'll have to talk to adarqui or Lance to get a custom program set up. What I can say is you definitely shouldn't be lifting right after a 12-mile run. Whether it was light or not, your legs still get fatigued pretty badly even if you don't feel it. Best time to do it would actually be before running or about 30min-1hr after running.

The major drop in your squat could just be because you're not used to that kind of work. (more likely because you ran for so long after squatting that day) The drop off after only a day of recovery seems reasonable, especially if you've not used to squatting.


ONCE AGAIN. I don't really know what to recommend for weightlifting. You'll definitely have to ask adarqui (though he doesn't check journals as often as he used to, that's still the best way to start) or Lance. They'll know how to work around the amount of running you're doing. Adarqui does some pretty ridiculous stuff himself. Your weightlifting will definitely be relatively light if you want to keep running as much as you are right now. (in your case, "light" would probably just be a few compound lifts and not necessarily light weights)


I can give you thumbs up on your work and critique your running or help you in knowing HOW to run a 400m (There are ways to do it more correctly...) but I'm not really in a position to tell you what you should be lifting. Squats should definitely be part of that though, IMO.

LBSS

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Re: I like running
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 11:47:44 am »
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As you've already experienced, you can't do everything at once. If you want to work on strength, you have to dedicate some time and effort to it, and that includes recovery time. If you're running twice a day, especially if you're running hard, that might get problematic.

As an example, you could replace 3 days of running with weight training for two months, eat a bunch more protein than you're probably used to, and see how much progress you make on the strength side. Your endurance will suffer a little but you can always get it back, and if you want to progress in one area another will have to suffer for a little while. Then, when August rolls around and it's time to start getting into track shape again, cut the weights back to one or two times a week, heavy-ish but low volume, and add the running days back into the mix.

What weight training, you ask? Hardly matters. You're a beginner so you'll make progress doing nearly anything as long as you keep your form solid (i.e. don't get hurt) and add weight to the bar. For instance:

jump squat or power clean/snatch 3 x 2
squat 3 x 5
bench 3 x 5
chin ups 3 x 5 (add weight once it gets easy)
DL or trap bar DL 1 x 5
core x whatever (leg raises, ab roll outs, etc.)

The main takeaway is: if you want to lift productively and are already training twice a day, you're gonna have to cut back on some part of your training. This will not hurt you, especially in the off-season, and in the long run may make you faster.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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D4

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Re: I like running
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 06:39:22 pm »
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As you've already experienced, you can't do everything at once. If you want to work on strength, you have to dedicate some time and effort to it, and that includes recovery time. If you're running twice a day, especially if you're running hard, that might get problematic.

As an example, you could replace 3 days of running with weight training for two months, eat a bunch more protein than you're probably used to, and see how much progress you make on the strength side. Your endurance will suffer a little but you can always get it back, and if you want to progress in one area another will have to suffer for a little while. Then, when August rolls around and it's time to start getting into track shape again, cut the weights back to one or two times a week, heavy-ish but low volume, and add the running days back into the mix.

What weight training, you ask? Hardly matters. You're a beginner so you'll make progress doing nearly anything as long as you keep your form solid (i.e. don't get hurt) and add weight to the bar. For instance:

jump squat or power clean/snatch 3 x 2
squat 3 x 5
bench 3 x 5
chin ups 3 x 5 (add weight once it gets easy)
DL or trap bar DL 1 x 5
core x whatever (leg raises, ab roll outs, etc.)

The main takeaway is: if you want to lift productively and are already training twice a day, you're gonna have to cut back on some part of your training. This will not hurt you, especially in the off-season, and in the long run may make you faster.

X2

Sacrifice some running right now, get stronger, and then get back into shape, and you'll be faster than ever before.  No other way around it. 
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

Beeg

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Re: I like running
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2011, 01:16:08 am »
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hey guys, thanks for the replies!


yea, I figured i'd have to cut some running out. thing is, I didn't run track fast enough for the stanford (my dream school) coach to push me through admission to walk on to the track team. thus, my last chance to really run fast and get in is cross country in the fall, which is raced at the 5 kilometer distance, a much more endurance oriented event. thus, I can't compromise endurance at all over the summer, because I'll need 15:30 for the 5k which translates to about 15 flat for 3 miles..... yea that's a minute and 38 seconds faster than I've ever gone before.



thus, here are my plans for the upcoming year. in Texas, there is very little emphasis on the indoor track and field season. thus, over the summer I focus on endurance with some light lifting interspersed into it (low volume, low weight, maybe even just bw exercises i'm not sure, I might not even have access to weights for a lot of the summer anyways), run a kick-ass cross country season, and after state rolls around and it's winter time aka track off-season time, I'll have all my cross country endurance going in. I can maintain endurance running only once a day so 3 times a week I can replace running with lifting, and just rest in the morning the other days. I'll put a focus on strength and really try to work the 400 down to 49.low or maybe even 48.high if I can. with a time like sub-49 at 17 years old, D1 colleges will certainly be alright with an 800 that's closer to 1:55 than 1:50, especially since lately the good 800m runners have been coming from the speed side.



aaaaaaanyways, I'm definitely sticking around and making a journal here, because after about a week of lurking I LOVE the atmosphere, the relative small size of the community, and in general it seems like a place full of winners. I think that kind of atmosphere will help me make myself a winner too. come winter time I'll definitely be hitting the weights hard, and hopefully I'll be able to put up some good vertical shows too for you guys (I'm more horizontally gifted than vertically =s)!