Author Topic: massage  (Read 2522 times)

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adarqui

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massage
« on: December 15, 2015, 07:19:18 pm »
0
dofkdsofksd

adarqui

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Re: massage
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 07:21:32 pm »
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http://www.biomedcentral.com/2052-1847/7/21

Quote
Background
Massage is often applied with the intention of improving flexibility or reducing stiffness in musculotendinous tissue. There is, however, a lack of supporting evidence that such mechanical effects occur. The purpose of the study was to investigate the effect of massage on the passive mechanical properties of the calf muscle complex.

Methods
Twenty nine healthy volunteers aged between 18 and 45 years of age had their calf muscle compliance and ankle joint dorsiflexion range of motion (ROM) measured using an instrumented footplate before, immediately and 30 minutes after a ten minute application of deep massage or superficial heating to the calf muscle complex. Repeated measures analysis of variance was used to determine differences between testing sessions and the types of intervention. Reliability testing for the measurement method was conducted using analysis of variance both within and between testing sessions.

Results
There was no significant change in calf muscle stiffness or ankle dorsiflexion range of motion with or without the application of calf massage. Inter- and intra-session reliability were very high, ICC > 0.88 (p < 0.001).

Conclusions
Although individuals’ perception of a change in tissue characteristics following massage has been reported, there was no evidence that soft tissue massage led to a change in the passive mechanical properties of the calf muscle complex. The findings of this study suggest that the use of massage to increase tissue flexibility prior to activity is not justified.

LBSS

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Re: massage
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 11:34:33 pm »
+1
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: run 14+ km
monday: lift
tuesday: run 10-12 km
wednesday: run 10-12 km
thursday: run 10-12 km
friday: rest
saturday: run tempo/VO2 max/speed x 6-8 km

Raptor

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Re: massage
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2015, 06:58:26 am »
+2
Actually, massage works in a different way - there are two pathways for pain - acute and chronic. There's a feedback loop in chronic pain that is interrupted by the neurons that fire during acute pain. There's a possibility that when you generate the acute pain (massage) that is stronger than the lingering chronic pain, you can interrupt the firing loop of the chronic pain neurons.

I can search for the video describing this by Robert Sapolsky.

Dreyth

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Re: massage
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 01:31:52 pm »
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Actually, massage works in a different way - there are two pathways for pain - acute and chronic. There's a feedback loop in chronic pain that is interrupted by the neurons that fire during acute pain. There's a possibility that when you generate the acute pain (massage) that is stronger than the lingering chronic pain, you can interrupt the firing loop of the chronic pain neurons.

I can search for the video describing this by Robert Sapolsky.

verrrry interesting, please find that vid!
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

Raptor

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Re: massage
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2015, 03:22:02 pm »
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It will be extremely difficult to find it, I've went through too many ones to remember where it is but... I'll try.

EDIT: OK, believe it or not, I found it. I'm uploading it right now. I won't bother to cut it, I'll tell you where you can find the relevant part but I recommend watching it entirely (you'll agree with me after you watch it).

I'm uploading it as an unlisted video due to copyright.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 03:40:30 pm by Raptor »

Raptor

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Re: massage
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 03:56:49 pm »
+1
Tried to upload the video, and after I did, it was immediately removed for copyright issues, even being unlisted, wtf!

Anyway, attached a picture with what's going on:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8lzXoJJdmqSXlRT0tiZ1JWVnM/view?usp=sharing

To translate what's going on there, it's like this:

Sharp pain = neuron X stimulated, then after a short time neuron Y is fired and it inhibits neuron X, pain disappears
Chronic pain = neuron X stimulated, neuron Y is inhibited, neuron X keeps firing => chronic pain that doesn't stop

When you generate some acute pain ("rough" massage) you fire the acute pain pathway, neuron X gets stimulated through that pathway (it was already stimulated through the chronic pathway) but then neuron Y gets stimulated as well, and Y inhibits X. So you can force neuron Y to fire through this acute pain that you're inflicting, in turn making X to be turned off (hopefully).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 04:03:50 pm by Raptor »

gukl

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Re: massage
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 07:36:04 pm »
+2
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_control_theory

TENs machines, deep heat creams etc work via this too. It's why when you bash your knee you instinctively rub it to make it hurt less riight?

Oh and raptor, sapolsky is awesome! 'why zebras dont get ulcers' was one of the best non-scientific science books I ever read! I need to read more of his stuff.

adarqui

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Re: massage
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2015, 08:00:22 pm »
0
Tried to upload the video, and after I did, it was immediately removed for copyright issues, even being unlisted, wtf!

Anyway, attached a picture with what's going on:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8lzXoJJdmqSXlRT0tiZ1JWVnM/view?usp=sharing

To translate what's going on there, it's like this:

Sharp pain = neuron X stimulated, then after a short time neuron Y is fired and it inhibits neuron X, pain disappears
Chronic pain = neuron X stimulated, neuron Y is inhibited, neuron X keeps firing => chronic pain that doesn't stop

When you generate some acute pain ("rough" massage) you fire the acute pain pathway, neuron X gets stimulated through that pathway (it was already stimulated through the chronic pathway) but then neuron Y gets stimulated as well, and Y inhibits X. So you can force neuron Y to fire through this acute pain that you're inflicting, in turn making X to be turned off (hopefully).

nice thanks!

I have a neuro-muscular testing book (Clinical Application of Neuromuscular Techniques), which I recall described it similarly. I just skimmed through it, might give some of it a re-read. If I stumble upon that discussion, i'll post it.

gukl

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Re: massage
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2015, 09:00:51 pm »
0
Tried to upload the video, and after I did, it was immediately removed for copyright issues, even being unlisted, wtf!

Anyway, attached a picture with what's going on:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8lzXoJJdmqSXlRT0tiZ1JWVnM/view?usp=sharing

To translate what's going on there, it's like this:

Sharp pain = neuron X stimulated, then after a short time neuron Y is fired and it inhibits neuron X, pain disappears
Chronic pain = neuron X stimulated, neuron Y is inhibited, neuron X keeps firing => chronic pain that doesn't stop

When you generate some acute pain ("rough" massage) you fire the acute pain pathway, neuron X gets stimulated through that pathway (it was already stimulated through the chronic pathway) but then neuron Y gets stimulated as well, and Y inhibits X. So you can force neuron Y to fire through this acute pain that you're inflicting, in turn making X to be turned off (hopefully).

from my neurology textbooks info its not 'slow pain vs fast pain' as such but tactile senstation vs pain. so you have

no stimulation: no pain activation (C/A𝛿 - slow/fast pain fibres), no tactile stim (Aβ)  - both inactive and inhibitory neurone prevents activation of projection neurone (to brain).

tactile stim (Aβ): activates Aβ fibres, which activate the projectin neurone (p) but also the inhibitory neurone (i) which blocks p.

Painful stim: C/A𝛿 activate which activate P either directly or via excitory interneurone, not inhibition of inhibitory I as first thought.

now tactile stim (Aβ) in presence of painful stim, which activate the inhibitory interneurones in lamina II of spinal cord which then block the projection fibres and therefore pain. but its also thought does stuff higher up in the CNS to block pain from that side of things too.

this is proposed mech behind massage/accupunture/tens etc

this book also mentions 'not always useful in chronic pain as some forms of chronic pain invovle phenotypic chanes in properties of low threshold afferents, so that they behave more like nociceptors. In such cases acrivation may actually increase pain rather than alleviate.' - so basically hyperalgesia?

one of my physiology books says on the topic

'stim of large Ab type sensory fibres from perihperal tactile receptors can depress transmission of pain signals from same body area, presumably via local lateral inhibition in spinal cord. - likely explaining why 'rubbing' massage and and liniments are useful in pain relief.'

- kind of straying away from the topic of massage but the pain stuff raptor brought up is interesting.

Raptor

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Re: massage
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2015, 05:55:24 am »
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_control_theory

TENs machines, deep heat creams etc work via this too. It's why when you bash your knee you instinctively rub it to make it hurt less riight?

Oh and raptor, sapolsky is awesome! 'why zebras dont get ulcers' was one of the best non-scientific science books I ever read! I need to read more of his stuff.

Definitely. Already watched 3 of his courses (each of about 12 hours). Then there's a big series on youtube from his lectures at Stanford. It can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D