Author Topic: Jump Manual  (Read 21213 times)

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JackW

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 07:34:34 am »
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Fair enough. I stand corrected. If it is a blatant rip off, well that is another story entirely.

Raptor

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 07:38:42 am »
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You're going to say I'm stupid or naive, but what if it's a coincidence? I mean, it could be, who knows? From 6 billion people in this world, it could be that two of them create similar videos at similar times...

I don't think it really matters to be honest. We all copy each others up in a way or another. I mean, people say to squat but they have copied that idea from someone, right? "Hey, this guy says squatting is great, I recommend you squat too!" Is that a "copyright infringement"? I don't want to be Jacob H's advocate, but it's just the way I currently see the things.

Even more, there's nobody forcing you to buy a product. I mean, even in Puke's case... some people just deserve to be scammed I guess. But in Jacob's situation, the quality of the info is pretty good, it doesn't matter where it comes from because you can't prove it comes from Adam or whoever, what is important is if the product quality is good or not I suppose.

I mean, what, you're going to sue everybody because they copied Verkhoshansky's concepts?

I'm saying all this because I don't remember Jacob saying "hey, this is my invented method, copyrighted". If that would be the case, then yeah, I'm with you.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 07:40:30 am by Raptor »

LanceSTS

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 07:47:53 am »
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 This is very similar to writing an article on your way of teaching or doing something, coming back to another website, and seeing someone has re posted your article with them as the author.  There is no law against it as there is no copyright on it, but chicken shit is chicken shit.  All you have to do is be humble enough to say, hey, this guy had a nice video or article from bla bla bla.... check it out. 
Relax.

LanceSTS

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2010, 08:06:44 am »
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Ill give you an example Raptor, Andrew worked his ass off breaking down the msem method from Verkoshansky, its not his idea, but its his way of explaining it and laying it out.  If someone posted a similar article on it, expaining it the exact same manner he did, using the exact same anecdotes, etc.,  not giving him credit for his work and his method of explanation, that would be chicken shit too.    It doesnt have to be illegal to be chicken shit.  And your idea of "what if two people had the same idea .... blah" that would be fine if it were just the penultimate step in question, the problem is one person copies the others way of teaching it, which I said before, is very unique in each individual track coach.
Relax.

JackW

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2010, 08:12:36 am »
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I hear what you are saying Lance but can you explain exactly what you mean by Link working his ass off?  ;D I mean when I write an article about a topic I am not that familiar with I usually have read something in one of my books, found it interesting, then I do a bit of research to find out what else has been written about it to make sure I understand the concept, then I sit down and write it up in my own way.

That isn't really working my ass off though.

LanceSTS

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2010, 08:21:39 am »
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 I mean all the years, blood, sweat, and tears he put into perfect his high jump technique and becoming an ELITE ATHLETE.  He is putting his "diamonds" down for people so to speak, what info he has accumulated throughout his athletic career.  That cant be compared to any amount of research you can ever do.  Trial and error, different coaches methodics, finding out what HE BELIEVES is the best method to teach that part of the jump, thats what I mean by working his ass off.  

Here is a great example of another coach teaching the penultimate step, very different teaching method, just like almost every track coach has.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eW0qMfGzb0
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 08:24:34 am by LanceSTS »
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2010, 08:24:54 am »
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I agree with that, but you can't know for sure that he really "learned it" from Linkenauger. Maybe he didn't, who knows?

One article is a complex thing... a penultimate step technique is a basic thing. It's like saying "you need to squat to get stronger". Millions of people say this, that doesn't mean (or maybe it does) they copy each other in a negative way.

LanceSTS

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2010, 08:29:25 am »
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I agree with that, but you can't know for sure that he really "learned it" from Linkenauger. Maybe he didn't, who knows?

One article is a complex thing... a penultimate step technique is a basic thing. It's like saying "you need to squat to get stronger". Millions of people say this, that doesn't mean (or maybe it does) they copy each other in a negative way.

The penultimate step and THE WAY IT IS FUCKING PERFORMED AND TAUGHT IS VERY UNIQUE, people who are involved in track and field know this already.  Watch Tom Tellez video, that is his method of teaching, almost every good track coach is going to have their own way of doing this, this is not hard to understand.  The step in itself is often very different, European track coaches teach a different penultimate altogether, most of them with very different teaching methods.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2010, 08:38:49 am »
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I know the Tellez movie. The thing is, what's so unique about the teaching in Adam's case? I mean, just because Jacob clapped his hands you can say he stole the teaching method? Or are there other things in common?

It just doesn't stand, in my book at least, to accuse someone with so little "evidence".

LanceSTS

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2010, 08:55:18 am »
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  There are alot of things in that video that show clear cut evidence that he got the info directly from Adam.  One being him using nba athletes as references who are in fact very poor examples of what he thinks he is saying, that should cue you in on his extensive knowledge of what he is talking about.  The cadence is so blatant it is laughable, I have seen at least 5 different top track and field coaches teaching the step and never seen that once, not once.  That is 100 percent Adam using a method that HIS coach used, that he believes worked best for him.  Wether or not it is UNIVERSALLY the best method and way to do it is debatable, but it is very unique to HIM and his coach.  He only covered the exact same things Adam covered, which as you can see by Toms video, there are several other aspects that are usually taught, and this just illustrates the copying even more.  I dont care if you "agree" or not Raptor, if you dont see that for what it is it doesnt matter to me, it is what it is.

 So you believe Jacob 1. randomly had access to the exact same coach adam had, and learned the step the exact same way , with the exact same step.  2. randomly posted his video shortly after adams got alot of attention. 3. has nothing to do with track and field on any significant level, but has his own method of teaching the penultimate step (if you watch the video and have a brain you can see when he is not looking at his notes that he has no idea what he is talking about).   
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2010, 09:44:55 am »
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Well I don't "believe" anything, I merely said that there are several possibilities. I mean, whatever, I don't give a shit. He's a millionaire and I'm not :D

adarqui

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2010, 04:09:40 pm »
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While I can't comment on everything Jacob has written I think it is hard to criticize the guy for trying to explain to people what the right way to train is and then suggesting that he shouldn't because he has allegedly stolen this information.

For example I know one of the things Jacob was accused of stealing was A-Links concept of the penultimate step (or the idea for using it in an article anyway), however the fact is that Adam didn't invent the penultimate step concept, it has been used by T&F coaches for years.

The same applies to KellyB claiming in his recent article that he introduced the concept of deficit testing. Seriously I nearly fell of my chair laughing when i read that. This was one of the first and most obvious things I was taught to do when I started training people (in the 90's). I am guessing it is a concept that has been around for years as well.

These aren't things that other guys have dibs on, this is common stuff. Maybe if Jacob came along and said he popularized the use of bands and the Russian conjugate system in powerlifting circles then maybe I could see a certain Lou Simmons getting a bit miffed, but just writing information about a topic that someone has already previously written about but is generally well known is not stealing.

Also, I would not be surprised to find a lot of those spam comments are not from Jacob but from one of his affiliates. If you saw in that video he is making a gobsmacking 500-1000 sales per month. That is mostly from Affiliates (I just checked Clickbank - 70% of sales come from affiliates. Compare that to Vertical Mastery - 2% Which is why I will be happy to make 500 in a year ha ha) Affiliates are more likely to use spammy techniques because they don't care about your reputation.

Out of interest I just checked out the other jump programs for affiliate activity

Jump Manual - 70%
Luke Lowery - 21%
VertFreak/Vert Mastery/VJB all well under 7%

So the top 2 most popular programs with affiliates are 2 programs I would put behind the next 3 listed in terms of programming (obviously Lowery WAY behind, Jump Manual is not bad, just not as much customisation which Jacob once told me he felt was over rated, which for beginners is reasonably true).

So Why do affiliates love Jacob and Lowery so much? Recurring commissions. Those 2 both offer the recurring commission upsell (in Lowery's case I am not sure it is actually offered though, I think you just get stung). There is a lesson in internet marketing for you.

ya that's why i really don't claim to have invented anything, except for that lame 'darqsquat' shit on youtube and possibly the visual reactive drills, but even the visual reactive drills were influenced.

but, the way hiller did that pen-ult vid, as lance described below, is alot different than just putting out common information.. he definitely got most of that info from a-link's vids, then made his vid right after..

in the end, no one really deserves credit for anything at this point, because all credit can be given to those who came before us many yeaaars ago.. the only credit that can be given is how that info is programmed into training, that itself can be very unique.. what's funny is, all of these ph.d's/guru coaches are still looking for that next gem they can call their own, that itself brings down s&c because honestly those gems are far and few between, instead you get 99% junk discoveries which dilute the simple & solid training info of the past.

i credit kellyb for his caffeine ideas, verkhoshansky for pretty much everything (msem, stim, shock, frequency, half squat, bounding, overspeed, general strength, peaking, supermethods ideology), jay schroeder for his ideas on frequency (& some ADA/plyo exercises), inno sport for some of it's ideas on areg (& some exercises, REA squat etc), alexV & WGF (korfist/fichter) for their corrective work/core work, coolcolj for his butt fungus & his backing of 'walking' for recovery/fat loss.. dno if i left anything out but that is my 'base' right now.

peace!

adarqui

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2010, 04:15:33 pm »
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i agree with lance 100%, jacob hiller plagiarized..

oooh, that's the word we've been looking for.. plagiarized.. of course you can recite information, but you can't utilize that information and pass it off as your own, a citation must be given :D

PLAGIARIZED.

Jacob Hiller

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2010, 08:24:47 am »
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Thought I'd stick my head in here... we'll see if it remains attached to my neck.

Just thought I'd clarify... since we're talking about me.

1. Adarq - That photo ofme is not shopped but that one of the nicest comments I've received.

2. Jack - Thanks for your kind words even if we disagree on  some points I appreciate the your openness, you've always been fair to me.  I really appreciate you defending me man... really.


3. I'm constantly trying to get affiliates not to do crazy stuff.  It's hard to keep it under raps but if there is someone who is particularly annoying let me know, I can have the "authorities" contact them or even cut them off.  I don't like the spam, it does me no good... sure maybe a couple sales, but it much worse for reputation etc... not a fan.

4. Adam L. Is awesome, and a good friend of mine.  But as far as I know I posted videos about form before anyone I know did.  I learned that stuff in high school and college track and field.  Not taking away from Adam, his stuff is great, and he is a very experienced high jumper.. but I definitely didn't steal it form him. 

Regardless as jack is mentioning we all learned stuff from someone... many of the jumping form concepts I have, I came up with alone, but many others were taught to me by someone along the way.

Penultimate step for basketball or any sport is different animal then track and field... I was a jumper in high school and college.  That's another conversation though.

On a last thought... we do one one one and group coaching sessions multiple times a week for personal programming.  It's a huge part of our system... the one one one interaction.

While we might disagree on some issues I think we can understand what those points are... and if I'm wrong... I hope to have the guts to admit it... sure better then persevering in error.

In the end I'm just a guy like you guys... I live training, am obsessed with it, and love making my living sharing it.

I come up with a lot (IMHO ;) of my own stuff, and I also like to read and learn from everyone else in the industry...

If  anyone is interested I have a free ebook about jumping form, a lot of my own ideas, and now I'm starting to see them come out in other places.. I really don't care though.. unless I'm accused of stealing what is my original work (which has also happened).





Jacob Hiller

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Re: Jump Manual
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2010, 08:51:49 am »
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Adarq... just read more...

I don't recollect ever seeing Adam's video of him "clapping" but I will tell you that EVERY track and field coach I have ever worked with uses clapping to train the cadence of the approach.

When I crated my program I had NEVER heard of Adam Linkenauger.  When I put it online I don't think Vert Freak was even out...  In fact I didn't know much about the online world at all.
 

I was also accused of ripping off some other VJ program that was released about a full year after mine.

If anyone deserves credit it would be my high school track and College track coachs, whose names I can't even remember (he was fired mid season... Coach Barnes and Coach Phelps...  But since those days (where I wasn't even that good) I have come up with a ton of my own information...

Some ideas I came up with, I even realized down the line that someone else thought of the same thing, and called it a different name, and in those cases I usually go back and say.. this is what I've called it.. but it's well known as ___ .

Again, I'm not taking anything away from Adam L., he's a friend of mine, and we communicate every now and then.

Also, as for the 50inchvertical site... it's some affiliates.  If these guys are spamming let me know I can report them and have them warned.  It's not good for me.  Jack W. probably gets the same thing sometimes.

I have 4 people posing as me on Facebook and Twitter... and I'm working on getting them shut down.  One dude even has some weird pic (not me) and claims it's me.. lol.

Listen, I'm not trying to be a hater here... I respect this site, and I respect that Adarq and others are doing some innovative stuff, not to mention serious dedication and work ethic...  props for that.

I'd just prefer to be represented fair.

If you disagree with my vids, or think I got something wrong, I'd love to know about it... I can always learn something. 

If we disagree, oh well, happens all the time.

There are some points of training that I think I am completely alone on... oh well... it makes sense to me, and until it doesn't make sense or stops working - I'lll stick to it.... but I'm open.