Author Topic: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same  (Read 5037 times)

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witchflesh

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lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« on: April 17, 2012, 02:15:35 pm »
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yo, been lurking here for a while and decided to finally make an account

anyway, over the past couple months i've managed to lose 40+ pounds (from 225 to ~180) and i began seriously lifting for the first time in my life.  having never really lifted before, my squat went quickly from 10 half squats of ~135 to a full ATG 295 lbs

now as someone who's been playing basketball basically my entire life, i was really hoping this would lead to increased vert, speed, etc.  however, my athletic ability has remained the exact same. i ball 4-5 times a week, lift 3-4, and do depth jumps 2 times every week and haven't seen any progress whatsoever

so i come to you guys. is there something i'm missing?
i've been an inch or two from dunking for far too long now, so if there's any advice you have, i'm listening

Dreyth

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 02:17:57 pm »
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Lift weights again one day. Then, on that day and for the next 2 days, don't play basketball or do any plyos. The next time you step on the court you will get higher.

It sounds like you just need a little bit of rest right now. Otherwise, practice your jumps in your plyo sessions. Maybe you're not coordinated enough to jump higher.
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D4

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 02:29:18 pm »
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I agree, if you got significaly stronger and lost significant weight, there's no reason you shouldn't be getting higher.

You're schedule has a LOT of work in it.  You're not ever recovered.  Deload for a week or so, maintain your max strength with low volume work/high intensity work and go out and practice jumping when your legs are fresh.  During this jumping training phase, I would day lift lower body only 1-2x a week with low volume, just to maintain your strength.  Its important to go out and practice max effort jumping/dunk attempts as much as you can (whenever ur legs are fresh)
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

witchflesh

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 02:35:11 pm »
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Lift weights again one day. Then, on that day and for the next 2 days, don't play basketball or do any plyos. The next time you step on the court you will get higher.

It sounds like you just need a little bit of rest right now. Otherwise, practice your jumps in your plyo sessions. Maybe you're not coordinated enough to jump higher.

this has been over the course of 5+ months, so i don't think rest is the issue.  can you elaborate on "not coordinated enough"? i'm fairly above average in terms of athleticism. i've been able to grab rim for like 5 years now (19 now) and i've never actually committed to any kind of workout routine until now, aside from playing a lot of basketball

obviously, i'm not looking for some miracle answer. i'm going to continue working at it as hard as always, i just thought i would have seen some results by now

I agree, if you got significaly stronger and lost significant weight, there's no reason you shouldn't be getting higher.

You're schedule has a LOT of work in it.  You're not ever recovered.  Deload for a week or so, maintain your max strength with low volume work/high intensity work and go out and practice jumping when your legs are fresh.  During this jumping training phase, I would day lift lower body only 1-2x a week with low volume, just to maintain your strength.  Its important to go out and practice max effort jumping/dunk attempts as much as you can (whenever ur legs are fresh)

like i said above, i've had several deload weeks and plenty of time to rest.  but i might take some time off lifting heavy and focus a lot more on jumping and plyos
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 02:39:09 pm by witchflesh »

D4

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 04:06:02 pm »
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Try taking a video of your jumps and post it here.
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

steven-miller

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 04:48:13 pm »
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How high, roughly, do you jump? Standing? From a drop-step? From a full run-up?

Otherwise, people are right that you won't jump up to your potential when you are always in the process of recovering. For training that is not necessarily a bad thing. But to get a better feel for what you can actually jump I second what Dreyth wrote - a couple days off is the way to go.

Besides that, your progress is very good. But 295 is not a high squat yet, even at your current weight. Keep at it and add an explosive lift, preferably a powerclean or powersnatch to your training.

Gary

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 03:28:32 pm »
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What really helped me IMMEDIATELY turn my squat strength into a higher vertical was jumping againt band resistance.

Upped my squat, both low bar and high bar over a couple of years. Vertical stayed at 23". Jumped with that gimmicky looking Power Jumper and got to 25" that very day. Got as high as 28" over the next few weeks.

I'm sure you could get the same effect from using minibands.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Dreyth

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 03:40:26 pm »
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Okay for now, do these two things:

1) Film yourself jumping and post it here (preferably running jumps).

2) Take 3 days off from any physical activity and then go to the court. Play one pick up game to get warm, then go jump before lifting weights or doing plyos.
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witchflesh

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2012, 01:50:42 pm »
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What really helped me IMMEDIATELY turn my squat strength into a higher vertical was jumping againt band resistance.

Upped my squat, both low bar and high bar over a couple of years. Vertical stayed at 23". Jumped with that gimmicky looking Power Jumper and got to 25" that very day. Got as high as 28" over the next few weeks.

I'm sure you could get the same effect from using minibands.

you mean like doing jump squats with bands around the bar? i've always stayed away from jump squats. they just don't look very safe and i don't think it's worth injuring myself over, but if that's what you mean i might be willing to give it a shot

anyway, i'm not sure how i'd film myself jumping without asking someone else to do it. if it helps, i'm exactly 6'0, can easily grab the rim. something that i think is kinda strange that i've noticed is my standstill 2 foot, running 2 foot, and running 1 foot jumps are all almost the exact same

anyway, appreciate you guys' help. been takin' the last two days off save for some light basketball

Gary

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2012, 03:40:53 pm »
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NO barbell, just bands.

http://www.verticaljumping.com/power_jumper.html

The Portable Power Jumper is composed of bands that attached to holders you wear around your ankles. You loop the bands across your shoulders and they stretch as you lift your torso away from your ankles (where the bands' ends are secured) in a jump. The resistance obviously grows as the bands stretch, forcing you to accelerate more than usual in order to get the same velocity off the ground.

Using too much band resistance defeats the purpose. Just a little band resistance fires up your nervous sytem to make you move faster (and hence jump higher) once the bands are off. Too much resistance turns this back into a weighted squat practically and moves you from speed over to the strength side of the speed-strength curve.

You don't HAVE to buy the PPJ. You can use a couple of mini bands. Loop one under each foot and then over the neck and then jump.

Again, this may not be what you need. But it helped me. A little accomodating resistance "taught" my body how to move more quickly, develop force faster, etc. This was after a couple years of doing nothing but heavy squatting and deadlifting. I'd gotten much better at moving heavier things slowly, but I hadn't practiced moving quickly. The band jumping "turned the speed on". What was amazing was how quickly it did it. Immediate improvement after just a few triples with the bands. Gains promptly slowed down after that and I never got to 30" before I had to take a break from lower body work. But 2" in one day isn't bad (and indicates that I just really needed something to force me to move faster with my existing strength).
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Dreyth

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2012, 05:27:32 pm »
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NO barbell, just bands.

http://www.verticaljumping.com/power_jumper.html

The Portable Power Jumper is composed of bands that attached to holders you wear around your ankles. You loop the bands across your shoulders and they stretch as you lift your torso away from your ankles (where the bands' ends are secured) in a jump. The resistance obviously grows as the bands stretch, forcing you to accelerate more than usual in order to get the same velocity off the ground.

Using too much band resistance defeats the purpose. Just a little band resistance fires up your nervous sytem to make you move faster (and hence jump higher) once the bands are off. Too much resistance turns this back into a weighted squat practically and moves you from speed over to the strength side of the speed-strength curve.

You don't HAVE to buy the PPJ. You can use a couple of mini bands. Loop one under each foot and then over the neck and then jump.

Again, this may not be what you need. But it helped me. A little accomodating resistance "taught" my body how to move more quickly, develop force faster, etc. This was after a couple years of doing nothing but heavy squatting and deadlifting. I'd gotten much better at moving heavier things slowly, but I hadn't practiced moving quickly. The band jumping "turned the speed on". What was amazing was how quickly it did it. Immediate improvement after just a few triples with the bands. Gains promptly slowed down after that and I never got to 30" before I had to take a break from lower body work. But 2" in one day isn't bad (and indicates that I just really needed something to force me to move faster with my existing strength).



honestly, just do depth jumps.
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

Gary

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2012, 07:49:07 pm »
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NO barbell, just bands.

http://www.verticaljumping.com/power_jumper.html

The Portable Power Jumper is composed of bands that attached to holders you wear around your ankles. You loop the bands across your shoulders and they stretch as you lift your torso away from your ankles (where the bands' ends are secured) in a jump. The resistance obviously grows as the bands stretch, forcing you to accelerate more than usual in order to get the same velocity off the ground.

Using too much band resistance defeats the purpose. Just a little band resistance fires up your nervous sytem to make you move faster (and hence jump higher) once the bands are off. Too much resistance turns this back into a weighted squat practically and moves you from speed over to the strength side of the speed-strength curve.

You don't HAVE to buy the PPJ. You can use a couple of mini bands. Loop one under each foot and then over the neck and then jump.

Again, this may not be what you need. But it helped me. A little accomodating resistance "taught" my body how to move more quickly, develop force faster, etc. This was after a couple years of doing nothing but heavy squatting and deadlifting. I'd gotten much better at moving heavier things slowly, but I hadn't practiced moving quickly. The band jumping "turned the speed on". What was amazing was how quickly it did it. Immediate improvement after just a few triples with the bands. Gains promptly slowed down after that and I never got to 30" before I had to take a break from lower body work. But 2" in one day isn't bad (and indicates that I just really needed something to force me to move faster with my existing strength).



honestly, just do depth jumps.

I'm guessing you don't realize I'm the guy who had to drain all that fluid out of his banged up knee every day for a couple of years..?

And don't assume that I didn't try depth jumps. You seem exasperated that the bands worked better for me than the depth jumps did. Why is that?
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

witchflesh

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 09:12:47 pm »
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i've been doing depth jumps for a month, couldn't hurt to maybe switch a dj session with the band shit (which i'm honestly still a little confused about but i'll figure it out)

Dreyth

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 11:04:23 pm »
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NO barbell, just bands.

http://www.verticaljumping.com/power_jumper.html

The Portable Power Jumper is composed of bands that attached to holders you wear around your ankles. You loop the bands across your shoulders and they stretch as you lift your torso away from your ankles (where the bands' ends are secured) in a jump. The resistance obviously grows as the bands stretch, forcing you to accelerate more than usual in order to get the same velocity off the ground.

Using too much band resistance defeats the purpose. Just a little band resistance fires up your nervous sytem to make you move faster (and hence jump higher) once the bands are off. Too much resistance turns this back into a weighted squat practically and moves you from speed over to the strength side of the speed-strength curve.

You don't HAVE to buy the PPJ. You can use a couple of mini bands. Loop one under each foot and then over the neck and then jump.

Again, this may not be what you need. But it helped me. A little accomodating resistance "taught" my body how to move more quickly, develop force faster, etc. This was after a couple years of doing nothing but heavy squatting and deadlifting. I'd gotten much better at moving heavier things slowly, but I hadn't practiced moving quickly. The band jumping "turned the speed on". What was amazing was how quickly it did it. Immediate improvement after just a few triples with the bands. Gains promptly slowed down after that and I never got to 30" before I had to take a break from lower body work. But 2" in one day isn't bad (and indicates that I just really needed something to force me to move faster with my existing strength).



honestly, just do depth jumps.

I'm guessing you don't realize I'm the guy who had to drain all that fluid out of his banged up knee every day for a couple of years..?

And don't assume that I didn't try depth jumps. You seem exasperated that the bands worked better for me than the depth jumps did. Why is that?

I was unclear.

I was telling the OP to do depth jumps, but I quoted you  :uhhhfacepalm:
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creativelyric

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Re: lost weight, got stronger, vertical stayed the same
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2012, 11:37:40 pm »
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i've been doing depth jumps for a month, couldn't hurt to maybe switch a dj session with the band shit (which i'm honestly still a little confused about but i'll figure it out)

The bands'll give you resistance at the start of the jumping movement and throw you down into the eccentric phase faster, thus forcing your muscles to lock up faster. Good for improving jump, basically.