Author Topic: Sucking at half squats?  (Read 7180 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Sucking at half squats?
« on: September 20, 2011, 06:43:21 pm »
0
I remember the earlier discussions with Steven Miller about him and his half squats and I was thinking about my half squat and why does it suck so much.

And now looking at my heaviest 1RM (145 kg) full squat I can see that the sticking point occured actually in this particular position of the half squat (if you look, it happens in maybe the most jump specific position in the squat in terms of angles).

I was wondering if in your experience met anything similar in somebody - being good at full squats but bad at two footed jumps and half squats. And if so, how to "correct" (assuming everybody should pretty much have a bigger (sometimes considerably) half squat than full squat) this. Is it just a matter of half squatting and adapting or is it more?

Thanks.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 06:42:29 pm »
0
So... any experience with this kind of a thing? :ibsquatting:

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Respect: +545
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 07:51:01 pm »
0
  I dont think you fall into the same category there.  The guys that have a big gap between the reversal point are usually guys who have squatted a good ways below parallel for a long period of time, and built up the reversal point at the point where the musculature is at the end rom and gives them rebound, or bounce off the calves at that point.  IMO, athletes that have been squatting slightly below parallel, but stopping the weight voluntarily and reversing before this "bounce" occurs, dont have as much trouble transitioning at that slightly higher rom.
Relax.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 01:17:26 am »
0
That might be but I actually prefer the "full" squat now than the half squat. The difference is not at all big by any means in favor of the half squat and when I half squat it always feels so heavy that I think "how was I ever been able to squat this weight full?!"

vag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5042
  • Respect: +2795
    • View Profile
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 11:37:42 am »
0
Reviving this thread after recent discussion in raptor's journal:

It's still terrible. How can a half squat be MUCH harder than a full squat? What is my weakness that is causing this?

entropy's point of view:
leverage...

avishek:
I don't think it's odd at all, for myself it's the same thing, but ill have to double check today.

Yes leverage: typical gym goers will shift forward during the descent and shift backwards during the ascent. This is not possible during a full squat. Most gym goers only do quarter squats anyway and this hip activation is absent.

If you practice good form however and don't allow motion in the sagittal plane, and consciously work on amortizing right above parallel in a vert specific way, it should be very hard with similar load in full squat. Need videos though to rly see what I'm saying.

raptor:
Well when I do full squats I can go past that half squat point without being too active at that angle since I'm going to go much deeper, and I can deal with stopping the weight at the bottom MUCH better. Also, since I initiate the movement from the hole, which is easier for me apparently, I already have momentum when I reach the half squat position so...

me:
I hear all of you, fair points. Still it doesn't feel like making sense. For the same person, especially an experienced trainee like raptor, half squats should be easier than full ones.
Not sure though, can't back it up. Also leverages are indeed are very important, each one is different.
I did experiment today after this chat, after warming up i did singles of full vs half squats, ramping weight. Wanted to see how it looks , in terms of form , transition , power output etc.
Will post vid later.


And here's the vid from today. I can't get any conclusions out of it. Reversal felt the same. Concentric felt much more powerful on halfs of course, as you can see from bar speed too.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU</a>

You guys film your fulls/halfs too if you like , might be interesting to see how each one's form differentiates in the two movements.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 11:39:14 am by vag »
woot

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 12:03:21 pm »
0
My 110 kg high bar half squats of yesterday basically look like twice as slow as what you're doing in that video. Will film them the next time.

I'll film a 3x110 full squat video and a 3x110 half squat video.

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Respect: +545
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2013, 02:00:55 am »
0
Reviving this thread after recent discussion in raptor's journal:

It's still terrible. How can a half squat be MUCH harder than a full squat? What is my weakness that is causing this?

entropy's point of view:
leverage...

avishek:
I don't think it's odd at all, for myself it's the same thing, but ill have to double check today.

Yes leverage: typical gym goers will shift forward during the descent and shift backwards during the ascent. This is not possible during a full squat. Most gym goers only do quarter squats anyway and this hip activation is absent.

If you practice good form however and don't allow motion in the sagittal plane, and consciously work on amortizing right above parallel in a vert specific way, it should be very hard with similar load in full squat. Need videos though to rly see what I'm saying.

raptor:
Well when I do full squats I can go past that half squat point without being too active at that angle since I'm going to go much deeper, and I can deal with stopping the weight at the bottom MUCH better. Also, since I initiate the movement from the hole, which is easier for me apparently, I already have momentum when I reach the half squat position so...

me:
I hear all of you, fair points. Still it doesn't feel like making sense. For the same person, especially an experienced trainee like raptor, half squats should be easier than full ones.
Not sure though, can't back it up. Also leverages are indeed are very important, each one is different.
I did experiment today after this chat, after warming up i did singles of full vs half squats, ramping weight. Wanted to see how it looks , in terms of form , transition , power output etc.
Will post vid later.


And here's the vid from today. I can't get any conclusions out of it. Reversal felt the same. Concentric felt much more powerful on halfs of course, as you can see from bar speed too.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU</a>

You guys film your fulls/halfs too if you like , might be interesting to see how each one's form differentiates in the two movements.

Those look like a normal half squat to full squat form.  If you want to use the halfs to peak out your vert, focus everything on that reversal, the very split second you go from down to up.  You can make that point in the range of motion very strong and very tolerable to high eccentric overload if you work at it.  Use the full squats for hypertrophy, primary strength gains, the halfs for specificity and special strength specific to the movement you want to improve.   
Relax.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2013, 06:56:14 am »
0
Well yeah but the question remains is if sucking at the half squat is just a matter of strength (weak quads) or also a matter of bad "movement efficiency" (bad reversal which... what the heck would that be caused by other than lack of strength, even with a bad movement efficiency...)

So you still get back at strength no matter how you put it... and strength is better trained with full squats... which is weird because you start thinking that improving your half squat means improving your full squat first but I'm going to give the half squat a chance since I've been full squatting for so long.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2013, 07:32:10 am »
0
IN OTHER WORDS

Would you work on increasing the half squat even if it comes from improved movement efficiency, since in this case the movement efficiency is also specific to the jump or would that time be better spent working on increasing your strength with full squats?

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Respect: +545
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2013, 12:51:08 pm »
0
IN OTHER WORDS

Would you work on increasing the half squat even if it comes from improved movement efficiency, since in this case the movement efficiency is also specific to the jump or would that time be better spent working on increasing your strength with full squats?

 "movement efficiency" is really not a good word for what happens, youre training the nervous system to override inhibitions, and training strength (which is at the very least somewhat speed specific) in a particular range of motion, and teaching the muscle/tendon complex how to actually use a more powerful eccentric stress rather than simply control it.
Relax.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2013, 03:53:31 pm »
0
Hm... would you go heavy on the half squats or use a weight light enough that allows for a faster eccentric/faster reversal speed?

pelham32

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +32
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2013, 09:51:02 pm »
0
Hm... would you go heavy on the half squats or use a weight light enough that allows for a faster eccentric/faster reversal speed?

Good question, I would like to know Lance's input as well on this. Currently I'm on 5/3/1 and after my main squat , I do 5x10 of half squats so the weight is pretty light so far. Last week I did 5x10 205lbs and I concentrated on the reversal point of really switching from eccentric to concentric.

I'll try to record a vid tomorrow of a set of half squats for education purposes lol.. Plus to see if I am reversing at the right angle
Goal

windmill consistently/ touch top of the square consistently



weight= 193
height= 6'3 1/2
highest touch= top of the square, which is 11'4

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Respect: +545
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2013, 12:55:31 am »
+2

  You will have to start fairly light, but this should move up very quickly and end up higher than your full squat max for reps with explosive transitions.  A good way to gauge how much weight you need is to pay attention to the actual time you spend pushing when you come out of the hole.   Youre looking for more of a *down, POP, and youre up.*   It should feel like you "push" for less than a second or so, which creates enough momentum to take you to the top.  If you get more of a constant "strain" to get up, then youre not going to get the same training effect I am referring to. 

  This will not be light weight for long, and once you get used to using the eccentric to gain more power and are able to actually benefit from it you should notice a dramatic difference in the amount of eccentric force you can load your jumps with and use the added power rather than collapsing from overload. 
Relax.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14464
  • Respect: +2394
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2013, 07:30:11 am »
0
Well in that case the weight would probably be like 80 kg or so for me... that's crazy.

pelham32

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +32
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Sucking at half squats?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 08:03:54 pm »
0
heres a vid taken today of my full squat and half squat... I plan to increase the half squat slowly 5 or 10lbs or so every workout and focus on the suggestion by Lance

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBYQBdLyYU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBYQBdLyYU</a>
Goal

windmill consistently/ touch top of the square consistently



weight= 193
height= 6'3 1/2
highest touch= top of the square, which is 11'4