Author Topic: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests  (Read 5420 times)

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T0ddday

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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 02:36:00 pm »
+8
There is so much broscience when it comes to steroids.  Also I feel like a lot of people who haven't reached a high-level of competition just really don't appreciate greatness.  People can be really really really good at something without there being some chemical explanation.  To some extent I agree with Kingfish and Raptor; allowing an avenue for athletes to compete untested would make things a lot cleaner.  On the other hand I think each sport should be able to make the rules as it chooses; the IAAF changed it so you don't get a false start in the sprints anymore, if they want to enforce a rule that you have to test positive for substance X before racing, fine by me.    What bothers me is any political pressure or testing groups which try to force sports to adhere to their rules, these groups profit when there are positive tests which is a huge conflict of interest.


From anecdotal evidence and from what I've read online it seems that steroids can take up to .2 seconds off a 100m for a male but with females they can take up to .4 seconds off a 100m time. I guess it also depends on how the person reacts. Like there are some people that can take steroids and just blow up because their body uses them really efficiently. A perfect example of this theory is Kevin Levrone. Than on the other hand you have people that don't react well to them (most top natural bodybuilders).

"Steroids will not make you crazy if the tendency isn't there already just as they won't make you a great athlete if you aren't already. Here's what they will do. If you run the 40 (yards) in 4.6, you can get it down to 4.4. If you bench 400 you can increase that to 450. If you have a vertical (jump) of 36 (inches) you might get to 40. But you have to be great to be greater, it's not as magical as many perceive."

Numbers like this are seriously hardcore examples of broscience.  Steroids do one thing.  They tip the scale for your body in favor of building muscle tissue.  THAT IS IT.  They don't make you faster by 0.2 seconds or lift 50 more pounds or jump higher... They do nothing of the sort.   IF (and its a big if) what you need is to change the environment to build more muscle tissue, then steroids will help immensely.  Otherwise they will do nothing or possibly even hurt your performance.  Most male sprinters are not losing because they need to build more muscle; short sprints always come down to MaxV which is primarily a function of tendon elasticity, motor control, and the ability of the body to relax in the reach phase.  Steroids do nothing here. 

Also, don't forget you can put your body in an anabolic environment without adding androgens.  The formula is simple.  Eat more and lift more.  Your body will build more muscle.  It will also put on fat.   That's why natural powerlifters are incredibly fat.   Fred Hatfield (the only man with a legit 1000lb squat) admitted that he used steroids because he "didn't want to have to get too fat".   The problem is even worse for the women.  Look at the heavyweight female oly lifters.  They are like 50% fat.   The fewer androgens you have the less willing your body will be to build or maintain muscle unless it's in extreme positive energy balance.    That's why athletes who don't have to fit into a weight class share stories where they are somewhat skeptical about the benefits of steroids.   Throwers often claim they don't help:  http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=joyce/080804

The bottom line is if your goal is adding as much muscle tissue as possible with zero fat you need steroids.  Thus, the only sport where steroids are completely required is bodybuilding.   Additionally pure strength sports which impose weight-class limits will be hard to compete in without steroids.  If your a male sprinter who lacks muscle mass and can't put on any muscle while doing the system work required of a sprinter, then they might help you.  The biggest post-steroids performance gain was probably Tim Montgomery who was always extremely weak and just too small to accelerate...  I don't think Walter Dix's problem is that he needs more muscle tissue...  Of course for women.... well most all of them fall into the Tim Montgomery category as far as steroids are concerned. 

It's really a common misconception to think that because an elite athlete does something that it helps.  Elite athletes are HIGHLY superstitious and competitive.  Justin Gatlin uses cryotherapy, wears oxygen boots after training, wears special hologram bracelets that he thinks make him stronger, he drinks special alkaline ionized water, and he used an androgen cream that his trainer thought wouldn't cause a positive test.   With the exception of the cream, all the other things have NO clear evidence that they work or are BS pseudo-science.  Yet he isn't taking any chances.  He uses everything he can and thinks it all works.    Did the cream help him?  Maybe.  But probably not. 


On one hand I can't imagine someone squeaky clean like Jeremy Lin taking PEDs. But how the hell is he so quick compared to all the other players out there. He's big and strong as well for his height and weight and something tells me it's not from doing squats and oats. In fact i doubt any NBA player has time for that stuff, so its prob just genetics plus drugs giving elite performances we enjoy today.

Seriously?  You can't believe Jeremy Lin is clean?  You think his quickness is so otherworldly it has to be from drugs?  Newsflash.  Jeremy Lin isn't an amazing athlete.  Neither is Chris Paul.  On any test of athleticism (eg. short sprint, short shuttle, vertical jump, weight lifts, etc) they don't display any amazing ability.   But they are really really really good at basketball.  Have you ever played with a NBA level player?  They are ridiculously good.  If you just play pickup basketball with a decent D1 player you will be shocked.  With the type of defense that's played in pickup basketball they can just walk down the court and make a 3-pointer from the college line pretty much every time.  Seriously they shoot like 80% unguarded.    The players who don't even make the NBA are ridiculously good at handling the ball, shooting, etc.   Jeremy Lin's technical ability is absolutely ridiculous.   Your right that he doesn't get his quickness from squats but it's not from drugs either, it's from genetics and an absolutely ridiculous amount of time spent training at their sport.   

For the most part team sports with long seasons don't have much of a problem with drugs.   There just isn't time for a elite NBA player to use steroids.  The are pretty much player basketball year round; the increased incidence of injury from steroids alone and the hard of time off to such a technical sport makes them not worth it alone.   

*** The bottom line is elite male athletes in most dynamic sports are not usually the ones who lacked the ability to put on sufficient muscle.   So unless muscle or muscle/fat ratio is absolutely paramount to performance, it's easy to overstate the benefit they provide.  The real benefit is more likely to women in dynamic sports or those whose genetics leave them lacking sufficient muscle.  Raptor would probably benefit the most from steroids.   The one caveat is that this post was about steroids.  Of course there are other PEDs.   Stimulants have a modest but real benefit to training performance and other drugs have real benefits to endurance sports.   There are rumors of drugs which would just drastically change sports performance all around, eg. locally injectible ATP.   However, I think these are mostly rumors but if possible we should be on guard for the first 40 second 400m performance. 


LBSS

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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2013, 03:16:10 pm »
0
^^^ +4,000,000
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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ChrisM

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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 03:47:40 pm »
0
Amen! Having played with some very good D1 players I can attest to the truth in Todddays statement.  Their SKILLS are just off the charts, the athleticism isn't for the most part. Sure there are a few freak athletes but having a 40" svj won't make you an allstar. Having a deadly j and tight handles will.
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vag

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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2013, 05:27:45 am »
+1
Best example: James white.



I chose him from tdub, jusfly, aut etc because he jumps just as high, but he is 6'7'' and he is a profesional basketball player, trying to get a chance in the NBA from 2006 that he was drafted.


Second example:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=10

NBA draft measurements of ALL time, sorted by SVJ ( i think it has measurements form 1998 and on , whatever ).
Be amazed, there is only one person that got 40'' ( DJ Stephens this year ), while the majority is below 30'', by a ratio 2:1 ( !!! ). Yep, 2 out of 3 NBA drafts can't hit a 30'' SVJ.


Not saying something new here, just making more clear what kind of basketball beasts those guys are!
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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2013, 07:17:46 am »
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He still has a bent arm there, nowhere near full extension. If he were to fully extend his arm there and also dislocate his shoulder really well then he'd touch the top of the backboard.

T0ddday

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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2013, 09:58:59 am »
0
Best example: James white.

I chose him from tdub, jusfly, aut etc because he jumps just as high, but he is 6'7'' and he is a profesional basketball player, trying to get a chance in the NBA from 2006 that he was drafted.

Not saying something new here, just making more clear what kind of basketball beasts those guys are!

Wow AMAZING photo and great example vag.  Probably one of the taller ridiculous athletes to still struggle to get a spot.  And the thing is it's not like he is "bad" skill wise.  I'm certain he would still really impress at more than athleticism; he averaged 23 pts a game in the d-league and shot 35% from behind the three point line.  So to recap; he is tall enough, ridiculously athletic enough (far more than necessary), and he is ridiculous skilled.  But still not skilled enough.  NBA basketball players have the unfortunate problem of playing against great defenders which really makes it hard to appreciate just how great they are at their game.  The failures of guys really great players drive the point home pretty well though. 

About James White, I wonder if their is some truth to his athleticism being less useful because he jumps off one foot?   I made the point in the beast thread that when height is factored in as an athletic attribute their is a level you can reach where you will get a starting job in the NBA no matter your skill level (eg DeAndre Jordan @  7 feet, Strong, Fast, Can Jump ).   I wonder where the magic point is to where you won't get picked up just on athleticism.  I personally know moderately athletic and highly skilled guys who are in the 6'5'' range who haven't came close to getting a shot..... Where's the sweet spot, if your 6'9 and have athletic ability will you get a spot no matter what?  If James White was 6'7 but jumped off two feet and was a little stronger could he carve out a rebounding, spot shooting, hybrid role based on his ability?    I don't know but I do know the D-League really hurts some of these guys.   Before the D-League you might get an NBA contract coming out of school if you were tall, strong, fast, etc and they would hope you developed.  Now they can put you in the d-league and see if you can develop the technical skill.... If you don't then you never cash a big check. 

Mutumbo000

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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2013, 02:29:56 am »
0
Best example: James white.

I chose him from tdub, jusfly, aut etc because he jumps just as high, but he is 6'7'' and he is a profesional basketball player, trying to get a chance in the NBA from 2006 that he was drafted.

Not saying something new here, just making more clear what kind of basketball beasts those guys are!

Wow AMAZING photo and great example vag.  Probably one of the taller ridiculous athletes to still struggle to get a spot.  And the thing is it's not like he is "bad" skill wise.  I'm certain he would still really impress at more than athleticism; he averaged 23 pts a game in the d-league and shot 35% from behind the three point line.  So to recap; he is tall enough, ridiculously athletic enough (far more than necessary), and he is ridiculous skilled.  But still not skilled enough.  NBA basketball players have the unfortunate problem of playing against great defenders which really makes it hard to appreciate just how great they are at their game.  The failures of guys really great players drive the point home pretty well though. 

About James White, I wonder if their is some truth to his athleticism being less useful because he jumps off one foot?   I made the point in the beast thread that when height is factored in as an athletic attribute their is a level you can reach where you will get a starting job in the NBA no matter your skill level (eg DeAndre Jordan @  7 feet, Strong, Fast, Can Jump ).   I wonder where the magic point is to where you won't get picked up just on athleticism.  I personally know moderately athletic and highly skilled guys who are in the 6'5'' range who haven't came close to getting a shot..... Where's the sweet spot, if your 6'9 and have athletic ability will you get a spot no matter what?  If James White was 6'7 but jumped off two feet and was a little stronger could he carve out a rebounding, spot shooting, hybrid role based on his ability?    I don't know but I do know the D-League really hurts some of these guys.   Before the D-League you might get an NBA contract coming out of school if you were tall, strong, fast, etc and they would hope you developed.  Now they can put you in the d-league and see if you can develop the technical skill.... If you don't then you never cash a big check.

If you're good enough to play D-league you're probs good enough to go off to Europe and make big bucks. The majority of the players in the D-league are just sacrificing the money of international leagues for the exposure of trying to achieve their NBA dream. Basketball can take you all throughout the world if you're good enough.

Also with the point your making about James White and the 6'5 dudes. I think the term you're looking for is 'tweener'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweener_(basketball)
Either way it's better to be a tweener than a short coz basketball is a tall man's game.
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Re: Asafa Powell & Tyson Gay Fail Drug Tests
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2013, 02:12:56 am »
-1
lol @ entropy thinking Jeremy Lin might be using PEDs.  wow.  1st of all, he is NOT athletic at all compared to other NBA guards.  He has shorter limps which allows him to be quicker (easier to change directions) but he also can't propel himself in the air liek say kyrie irving or russell westbrook, but do you know how hard Jeremy Lin works to get strong and to live a good lifestyle?

If you're going to suspect anyone using PEDs in the NBA... 4 words: wade, lebron, paul, howard.
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