Author Topic: The Squat Thread  (Read 22776 times)

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adarqui

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The Squat Thread
« on: March 19, 2010, 12:32:44 am »
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There are different ways of squatting, of course. Some more beneficial to others. Some add more specificity. Some people are against specificity. I dno, post what form of squatting you like and for what, if it's not listed. Comment etc.

I didn't gallery this bball2020, it's kind of pointless, but, if you still want me to do it, I will. The movement is slow enough to pause though, IMO.

Post what you find to be the most effective "style" of squatting, as well as other squatting videos of high level athletes.

peace

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2010, 12:48:57 am »
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Ok so I'll go first. All of the stuff below is on "squatting for athletic performance", not for a meet.

Firstly, I don't like to force depth for people with long leverages, such as high jumpers/various basketball athletes. However, with these athletes, we do work on depth, especially during the warmup/work up sets. But for someone who is "very strong" yet has "very long femurs", I'm not going to sit there for months and months trying to get them to look like a powerlifter.

I get alot of people asking me how I teach squat form, as do most trainers. I feel that squatting off pins is probably the most effective way to teach the squat.



Really Lanky Athletes

So, for long femur'd high-jumper-build athletes, we'll go as low as possible without rounding. I can't really find any videos of half squats the way I do them, and I deleted (by accident) all of eddie's squat videos, but here's how he would squat:

  • Armpit width stance
  • Feet neutral
  • Mid-bar
  • Inhale, hold, & brace abs on the way down and on the way up, until 3/4ths of the way back up



Here's a video of me doing it, please post some nice half squat videos of high jumpers if you have them:

Half squat, close width, feet neutral:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKd87aDtHGA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKd87aDtHGA</a>

Not on video, half squat off pins, close width, feet neutral. scratch that. Here's a link to me squatting off pins, significantly above half squat tho: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF-Fp5ZeAwo (after the isos)



Non-lanky athletes

For non-lanky athletes, deep squatting comes alot easier.

  • Slightly wider than shoulders width stance
  • Slight external rotation causing a slight toeing out
  • Mid to High bar
  • Inhale, hold, & brace abs on the way down and on the way up, until 3/4ths of the way back up


Here's Taje doing some, most of the other videos are alot darker. Also, most of his vids are maxes. He keeps his form tight in those videos but their are deviations. When trying to bump up his squat, we'd sacrifice depth temporarily as he built strength under the new weight, then worked his way back down. He also used pin squats to zero-in on his form.

Regular squat:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJpCnoCmtLI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJpCnoCmtLI</a>

^^ Here taje is squatting 195 for reps. Most of his vids are darker and max attempts, so this is one of the best I got. He's hit 315 @ 150, below parallel.


Pin squat:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yq6ZVo0e70" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yq6ZVo0e70</a>






So, two different athletes with two very different builds. I saw no point in holding eddie back trying to turn his squat into some kind of PL-style squat. Due to the close stance, he got massive hamstring /glute recruitment, so did I, so does everyone.

Half squatting can also be done for athletes like taje, as they peak vert. Most of the time spent should be below parallel though.


peace

nba8340

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 01:37:51 am »
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2BxQt2ZH2M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2BxQt2ZH2M</a>u make some good points

here's a vid of a female high school volleyball player.  I don't know why they have her squatting so wide, she looks crazy unstable like that i would have her going substantially less wide and making sure she pushed those knees out

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 01:42:13 am »
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Quote
here's a vid of a female high school volleyball player.  I don't know why they have her squatting so wide, she looks crazy unstable like that i would have her going substantially less wide and making sure she pushed those knees out

ya, especially for females who have wide hips and alot of knee valgus to begin with.. plus the way she's looking up, it's going to cause way too much of an arch in her back.

peace

vag

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 06:09:11 am »
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That is a very interesting topic , great work again Andrew!
Ive been in this dilemma many times...
I feel much better and stable on the half squat , and i can add weights linearly there.
In deep squats i seem to struggle in the hole , and i cant add weight linearly, it takes about 3 sessions with the same weight until i feel i can really add.
But everyone insisted deep is better so i kept trying to improve deep.
Many times i ended up doing naturally what you mentioned above... going very deep in warmups and gradually decreasing depth as the bar got heavier.

Now what about leg leverages? i have no damn clue how to evaluate those, but im sure you do:
Are there any formulas , or ratio ranges or anything?
My height barefoot is ~72''
Height from toes to middle of knee = ~21,5'' ( 55% of leg height , 29% of total height ).
Height from middle of knee to hip joint = ~18'' ( 45% of leg height , 25% of total height ).
Obviously leg height = ~39,5'' ( 54% of total height. )

Hoping this ( actually not this , your reply to this, LOL ) might help other people too evaluating their leverages.

woot

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2010, 06:42:27 am »
0
That is a very interesting topic , great work again Andrew!
Ive been in this dilemma many times...
I feel much better and stable on the half squat , and i can add weights linearly there.
In deep squats i seem to struggle in the hole , and i cant add weight linearly, it takes about 3 sessions with the same weight until i feel i can really add.
But everyone insisted deep is better so i kept trying to improve deep.
Many times i ended up doing naturally what you mentioned above... going very deep in warmups and gradually decreasing depth as the bar got heavier.

Ya that's why eventually I started half-squatting after seeing eddie's gains, but making sure I hit the walking lunges/stepups very hard. I had to stop doing stepups because my glutes were getting too big, it would aggravate an issue I have in my sacral spine.


Quote
Now what about leg leverages? i have no damn clue how to evaluate those, but im sure you do:
Are there any formulas , or ratio ranges or anything?
My height barefoot is ~72''
Height from toes to middle of knee = ~21,5'' ( 55% of leg height , 29% of total height ).
Height from middle of knee to hip joint = ~18'' ( 45% of leg height , 25% of total height ).
Obviously leg height = ~39,5'' ( 54% of total height. )

Hoping this ( actually not this , your reply to this, LOL ) might help other people too evaluating their leverages.



I actually had data on a few athletes, but I can't find it. I also can't find some high jumper study comparing femur length to tibia length. I am full of fail currently.

I will post my measurements tomorrow.

peace man

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2010, 06:54:39 am »
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I found some other stuff, but I really want to find that high jump study.

Very good article: Physical Structure of Olympic Athletes


Some general differences:




Nice table of differences:




Bigger calfs in 400m sprinters:




High jumpers vs sprinters:




Nice table comparing white/black sprinters vs long distance runners:




Nice table comparing white/black sprinters vs basketball players:






Nice table comparing men & women:





Nice table comparing black & white athletes:







Weightlifters & Throwers:









arm leg & leg length of a bunch of events, white vs black:









obvious, but interesting:



adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010, 07:40:27 am »
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http://www.assembla.com/spaces/talentid2009/documents/cN48bGVKer3OFEeJe5aVNr/download/0926BookinviteSelfSelectionofAthletesintosportsFinal.doc


The crural indexThe skelic index describes leg length in relation to torso length and is defined as the derived total leg length (stature minus sitting height) divided by sitting height.  These ratios are depicted in Figure 2. 



Crural index & long/high jumping:

Table 1. Here we show that while the computed somatotype components describe physique, the crural index (Davenport, 1933) represents an additional discriminant in describing physique variation across our adult sample.  A dominant crural index in classes 2 and 4 illustrates the importance of relative limb length in athletes trained for endurance and strength.  A smaller crural index may be advantageous for general agility, whereas a higher value may determine mechanically advantageous take-off technique in long-jump and high-jump events (Alexander, 1990) and in basketball, in tandem with development of commensurate muscle power to maximise femoral leverage Ackland et al., 1997).




Skeletal ratios
Significant differences in skeletal ratios are found between different types of
athletes even when differences in absolute body size are taken into account.
Marathoners tend to have a high skelic index (ratio of total leg length to
sitting height), that is, relatively longer legs. Distance runners also have a
higher crural index (ratio of lower leg length to upper leg length). Longer legs
reduce stride rate, and relatively shorter thighs mean that the resistance arm
on the upper leg is shorter. The muscle mass of the thigh is moved closer to
the axis of rotation of the leg, reducing the energy cost of locomotion. 



http://lib-ir.lib.sfu.ca/bitstream/1892/7871/1/b16962849.pdf
Anthropometric modelling of the human vertical jump

"A study of the proportions of animals of different species indicates that the
fast runners and jumpers are those that have long distal segments, such as
the horse, kangaroo, and the cat. The thigh segment of these animals is
short, ending before the segment leaves the pelvis or flank area The leg
segment is longer than the thigh; the foot segment is the longest, and the
toes are also quite long The animals described as the best jumpers have a
leg considerably longer than the thigh segment and therefore a large crural
index."




"Ross et al. (1982b) compared female high jumpers from the 1976 Montreal Olympic
Games to a group of Canadian reference females, and found that the high jumpers were
proportionally short in sitting height (in other words, proportionally long in the lower
extremities), and that the tibial length was also proportionally long. This supports the
notion that there is an advantage to having long lower extremities and a larger crural index
for jumping.
"






adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2010, 07:42:11 am »
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If anyone finds anything on skelic/crural index & it's relation to squatting, please post.

I'm going to sleep :)

peace

nba8340

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2010, 01:16:50 pm »
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That is a very interesting topic , great work again Andrew!
Ive been in this dilemma many times...
I feel much better and stable on the half squat , and i can add weights linearly there.
In deep squats i seem to struggle in the hole , and i cant add weight linearly, it takes about 3 sessions with the same weight until i feel i can really add.
But everyone insisted deep is better so i kept trying to improve deep.
Many times i ended up doing naturally what you mentioned above... going very deep in warmups and gradually decreasing depth as the bar got heavier.

Ya that's why eventually I started half-squatting after seeing eddie's gains, but making sure I hit the walking lunges/stepups very hard. I had to stop doing stepups because my glutes were getting too big, it would aggravate an issue I have in my sacral spine.
wow, i hope we can all have that problem with the glutes

how do you feel about low vs. high step ups, like which do you like to use, and when, and why.  i feel like the higher the box the more likely it will become more hip flexor/quad movement



Quote
Quote
Now what about leg leverages? i have no damn clue how to evaluate those, but im sure you do:
Are there any formulas , or ratio ranges or anything?
My height barefoot is ~72''
Height from toes to middle of knee = ~21,5'' ( 55% of leg height , 29% of total height ).
Height from middle of knee to hip joint = ~18'' ( 45% of leg height , 25% of total height ).
Obviously leg height = ~39,5'' ( 54% of total height. )

Hoping this ( actually not this , your reply to this, LOL ) might help other people too evaluating their leverages.



I actually had data on a few athletes, but I can't find it. I also can't find some high jumper study comparing femur length to tibia length. I am full of fail currently.

I will post my measurements tomorrow.

peace man
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 01:26:23 pm by adarqui »

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2010, 01:39:09 pm »
0
That is a very interesting topic , great work again Andrew!
Ive been in this dilemma many times...
I feel much better and stable on the half squat , and i can add weights linearly there.
In deep squats i seem to struggle in the hole , and i cant add weight linearly, it takes about 3 sessions with the same weight until i feel i can really add.
But everyone insisted deep is better so i kept trying to improve deep.
Many times i ended up doing naturally what you mentioned above... going very deep in warmups and gradually decreasing depth as the bar got heavier.

Ya that's why eventually I started half-squatting after seeing eddie's gains, but making sure I hit the walking lunges/stepups very hard. I had to stop doing stepups because my glutes were getting too big, it would aggravate an issue I have in my sacral spine.
wow, i hope we can all have that problem with the glutes

how do you feel about low vs. high step ups, like which do you like to use, and when, and why.  i feel like the higher the box the more likely it will become more hip flexor/quad movement



Well here are the variations i've used:

  • low stepups: ~12" box
  • normal stepups: ~18" box
  • high stepups: ~24" box


Keep in mind, a high stepup for someone who is < 6' might be around 22" though, we're looking at a <90 degree angle.

I implement normal stepups for the most part. In novices, I only implement normal stepups, but for intermediate/advanced, we take advantage of high & low.

In the preparatory phase, you'd use high & normal. As you transition to a peaking phase, you'd use normal & low. Low stepups of course allow for more weight, which can get pretty high for SL jumpers, so you have to be prepared & progress properly.

High stepups are hardly quad/hip flexor dominant though, if form is strict. A high stepup has similar joint angles between the hip & knee as that of a dip squat. The key is to push through the heel, actively pulling back the femur. If you let your femur shift forward, you will be attempting to overuse the quads in the movement.



As far as set/rep ranges, when trying to gain mass in the glutes/hams/quads, I prefer to do stepups using the same leg in a row, not alternating, for about 8 reps each leg. When trying to put on strength, we're looking at same leg OR alternating, using 3-5 reps each leg. When trying to produce alot of power without too much fatigue, I use only alternating stepups, of 1-3 reps each leg, singles would be done for a bunch of sets, max accelerationg of the heavy weight.

peace

vag

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2010, 08:27:31 pm »
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Finaly , i found a kinda useful article about leg length evaluation:

http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/7/3/1047/pdf

Long story short:
There is not much global data about leg length ratios.
The only data available is about Sitting Height Ratio (SHR ).
Sitting Height = height from head to buttocks , sitting in a chair.
SHR = ( sitting height / standing height ) * 100.
From what i see in SHR the chart for adlults: 52 to 53 = average , anything under 50 = very long legs , anthing over 55 = very short legs.



woot

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2010, 08:32:07 pm »
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Finaly , i found a kinda useful article about leg length evaluation:

http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/7/3/1047/pdf

Long story short:
There is not much global data about leg length ratios.
The only data available is about Sitting Height Ratio (SHR ).
Sitting Height = height from head to buttocks , sitting in a chair.
SHR = ( sitting height / standing height ) * 100.
From what i see in SHR the chart for adlults: 52 to 53 = average , anything under 50 = very long legs , anthing over 55 = very short legs.





nice

ya that's all i could find too: 'skelic index' = SHR

shit i need to do some measurements ill brb..

vag

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2010, 08:49:12 pm »
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nice

ya that's all i could find too: 'skelic index' = SHR

shit i need to do some measurements ill brb..

My SHR is 50,5%. Long legs...
Here comes the half-squat fiesta! :D :D :D
woot

adarqui

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Re: The Squat Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2010, 08:51:53 pm »
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PLEASE PARTICIPATE, POST YOUR SHR : Here

Quote
Sitting Height Ratio (SHR ).
Sitting Height = height from head to buttocks , sitting in a chair.
SHR = ( sitting height / standing height ) * 100.
From what i see in SHR the chart for adlults: 52 to 53 = average , anything under 50 = very long legs , anthing over 55 = very short legs.

LOL




HOW TO MEASURE SEATED HEIGHT: 90 Degree hip angle






JUST FOR REFERENCE: