Author Topic: Two Hands Two Feet  (Read 99615 times)

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Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2012, 06:10:27 pm »
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Big win last night. 53-20. Only scored 6 points but had over 20 rebounds and about 8-10 assists. ALso had 1 huge block late in the game.
Groin has flared up again. It's stemmed from my dunking attempts on Friday and it only ever seems to be an issue when I am jumping outside of a game scenario or outside of gym training.

Has anyone else had any experience with an injury like this? Also, I'm not sure if I should keep squatting and deadlifting whilst I recover from it. The movements themselves don't hurt it but I don't know if I should be placing unnecessary stress on it.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
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Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2012, 10:04:27 pm »
+1
So I saw an osteopath today. I've recently moved for work so hadn't seen this one before. First of all she was easy on the eyes which never hurts and secondly she really knows her shit. 

Brief summation: lack of mobility and instability in the hips, plus out of alignment hips and a tight chestal area = groin pulls for me. Add to that tightness in pretty much every other area of my body and you get the picture. Other main issue is weak TA (transverse abdominus) and not engaging it properly which was causing instability in the hips. (Everything I've just said is a bastardised version of what she told me so it may or may not make any sense).

I really love it when you find a physical therapist who really knows what they're on about. Makes life so much easier.

Anyway, off all plyometrics at the moment till the problem is corrected. Will ease my way back into squats and deads too whilst I get used to using my core properly. Sux to be taking a step backwards weight wise but no doubt it'll have long term benefits. Especially if I can stay healthy.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 10:07:17 pm by Coges »
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
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LBSS

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2012, 11:28:42 am »
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are osteopaths full physicians in australia, the way they are in the states? like could this one prescribe you drugs or get board certified in surgery if she wanted to?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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handstand + backflip + flag

Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2012, 06:34:33 pm »
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Nah I don't think so. Here they seem to be on the same line as Physios and Chiros. 

What's the quality of Osteopaths like in the states? It would be frightening if some of the osteos I've been to could prescribe drugs.
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LBSS

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2012, 07:18:45 pm »
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osteos here basically have to do med school plus. they get the same four-year training as regular doctors (MDs) but they also get trained in osteopathy whatnot -- basically the manual therapy part. the quality of osteopathy schools (and therefore students) is generally perceived to be lower than most med schools but you can at least rest assured that DOs have passed the boards and have some legit medical training.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

handstand + backflip + flag

adarqui

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2012, 07:58:37 pm »
+1
Big win last night. 53-20. Only scored 6 points but had over 20 rebounds and about 8-10 assists. ALso had 1 huge block late in the game.
Groin has flared up again. It's stemmed from my dunking attempts on Friday and it only ever seems to be an issue when I am jumping outside of a game scenario or outside of gym training.

Has anyone else had any experience with an injury like this? Also, I'm not sure if I should keep squatting and deadlifting whilst I recover from it. The movements themselves don't hurt it but I don't know if I should be placing unnecessary stress on it.

ya i had a few groin injuries.. lifting heavy definitely can prevent it from recovering, i'd recommend dropping the weight for a few weeks, focus on being very controlled, ~10 rep sets, nothing to failure.. also make sure to get in a really good warmup/stretching pre-lifting and stretching post lifting.. the key is to slowly get that resting muscle length back to normal while also progressively strengthening it..

the fact that your groin seems to be pulling when you're jumping outside of game-situations kind of makes me think you're not warmed up enough? how good do you warmup for your dunk sessions? if your warmup is lacking, eventually when you heal up, really focus on the warmup.. get a real good sweat going before even thinking about jumping max.

some nice dunks in your vid man.

Raptor

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2012, 08:23:34 pm »
+2
Here's the masterpiece of editing brilliance.

Pretty happy with the one handed reverse. Everything else is kind of standard. Legs felt relatively good today but not great. Did a few jumps of two feet but edited them out cause they're god awful. I should be able to do these vids every couple of weeks to track the progress which will be great.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUX8hrcLUTE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUX8hrcLUTE</a>





You look so "big" out there... imagine yourself coming up with greater speed... you'd break out the backboard...

How strong are your calves and hamstrings?

Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2012, 10:36:35 pm »
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Big win last night. 53-20. Only scored 6 points but had over 20 rebounds and about 8-10 assists. ALso had 1 huge block late in the game.
Groin has flared up again. It's stemmed from my dunking attempts on Friday and it only ever seems to be an issue when I am jumping outside of a game scenario or outside of gym training.

Has anyone else had any experience with an injury like this? Also, I'm not sure if I should keep squatting and deadlifting whilst I recover from it. The movements themselves don't hurt it but I don't know if I should be placing unnecessary stress on it.

ya i had a few groin injuries.. lifting heavy definitely can prevent it from recovering, i'd recommend dropping the weight for a few weeks, focus on being very controlled, ~10 rep sets, nothing to failure.. also make sure to get in a really good warmup/stretching pre-lifting and stretching post lifting.. the key is to slowly get that resting muscle length back to normal while also progressively strengthening it..

the fact that your groin seems to be pulling when you're jumping outside of game-situations kind of makes me think you're not warmed up enough? how good do you warmup for your dunk sessions? if your warmup is lacking, eventually when you heal up, really focus on the warmup.. get a real good sweat going before even thinking about jumping max.

some nice dunks in your vid man.

Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely going to be taking it easier on the weights. Makes sense to go controlled. Will give me a good chance to work on my form too.
What do you think of snatch grip deads (even from racks to begin with)? I won't be able to use as much weight so will reduce the temptation to go too heavy. Have heard they have decent benefits too.

You know what, warm-up is probably average at best when shooting around. I generally do it on my lunch break so am time concious as well. It's funny but I've never really considered that what I was doing were max jumps and definitely don't think about it that way at the time. It's always just been a jump but I probably need to take that into account more given the other training I'm doing too.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2012, 10:44:59 pm »
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Here's the masterpiece of editing brilliance.

Pretty happy with the one handed reverse. Everything else is kind of standard. Legs felt relatively good today but not great. Did a few jumps of two feet but edited them out cause they're god awful. I should be able to do these vids every couple of weeks to track the progress which will be great.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUX8hrcLUTE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUX8hrcLUTE</a>





You look so "big" out there... imagine yourself coming up with greater speed... you'd break out the backboard...

How strong are your calves and hamstrings?

Haha. That's what I thought when I watched it back. I look like a slow 6'10 guy playing in some country league somewhere. When you talk greater speed are you thinking off more steps? I noticed that I've only got really one speed when attempting dunks. I tried a few alleys and they were even slower. When the groin is better I'll have to make a more concerted effort to get up more speed. Will be interesting and I would love to break the backboard. I know you can't see it clearly in the video but the sign on the wall actually reads "no dunking or hanging from the rims".

Yeah good question. My calves are a decent size but don't know how strong. Probably not that strong as I really haven't trained them much in the past. Hamstrings I don't know either. I can RDL with 80-100kgs for decent quality reps. Hams and glutes are definitely weaker than quads but am trying to improve the imbalance.

What is a good measure of balance? Is there a particular squat/RDL/whatever ratio?
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

Raptor

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2012, 06:15:46 am »
+1
I have no idea. But you should definitely be able to use a higher controllable approach speed... and it's usually the hamstrings and calves that prevent you from doing that.

If you suddenly gain weight (doesn't matter what kind, fat and/or muscle) and find out you can't use the same approach speed off one leg, it's usually the calves since they don't adapt as fast as the other muscles and therefore can't optimally amortizate this heavier BW like they used to, so you slow down a bit in your approach.

Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2012, 06:30:17 am »
0
14/11/12- Workout - Full Body

Given I'll be reducing the weights for lower body for a bit I thought I'd move to full body workouts and use it as an opportunity to get some form practice in.

Squats- Took it slow and controlled. Tried to get extra depth too without any bounce. The weight wasn't much but the ten slow reps got me sweating a bit.
10 x bar, 10 x 30, 10 x 40, 10 x 50, 10 x 50

Chins
5,5,4,3,3

RDL
2x12@40- had a wicked shaking in my right leg doing these. Not sure if related to the groin but I wasn't going to push it.

Incline Press
8 x 40, 8 x 50, 8 x 50, 8 x 50

Push Ups
13, 12

Barbell Curl @25kg
15,10

Side, Front, Side Plank
30 each way x 2

Plenty of stretching before and after. Feel pretty good.
 
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Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2012, 06:41:10 am »
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I have no idea. But you should definitely be able to use a higher controllable approach speed... and it's usually the hamstrings and calves that prevent you from doing that.

If you suddenly gain weight (doesn't matter what kind, fat and/or muscle) and find out you can't use the same approach speed off one leg, it's usually the calves since they don't adapt as fast as the other muscles and therefore can't optimally amortizate this heavier BW like they used to, so you slow down a bit in your approach.

You know what that's a good point. I'm probably 3-5kgs over what I was around a month ago so that would have to make a difference.

Having said that, during a game I can certainly get speed up down the court and off the dribble. It may be just making more of a conscious effort to get the speed first before jumping. I will have to test it out when the groin is healed. Maybe I can trim a bit of fat too. I probably had my best vertical when I was in the mid 80kgs but I was certainly a lot weaker.
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- Zatsiorsky

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2012, 07:14:48 am »
+2
Yeah because you associate "weaker" with squat strength and ignoring calf and hamstring strength. You were probably stronger relatively in your calves and possibly hamstrings at that weight. Obviously the speed you get into your runup will increase your body mass in the plant and it makes quite a bit of difference.

5 kg x 10 times bodyweight in the plant = 50 kg more to overcome for the calves... especially with these being concentrated on one leg (during the one-leg jump). It might manifest itself as the knee "giving out" when in reality is the calves that are overloaded, the ankle collapses, the tibia is traveling forward and they overload the knee (bend the knee) and quad in return. Same with the hamstrings. If they are weak your body will shorten them at the knee to prevent excessive tension to be applied to them, and since the knee becomes bent then the quad will be overloaded, and your knee will give out.

It's interesting because both these scenarios will make you think you have weak quads.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:16:27 am by Raptor »

Coges

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2012, 07:27:23 pm »
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Yeah because you associate "weaker" with squat strength and ignoring calf and hamstring strength. You were probably stronger relatively in your calves and possibly hamstrings at that weight. Obviously the speed you get into your runup will increase your body mass in the plant and it makes quite a bit of difference.

5 kg x 10 times bodyweight in the plant = 50 kg more to overcome for the calves... especially with these being concentrated on one leg (during the one-leg jump). It might manifest itself as the knee "giving out" when in reality is the calves that are overloaded, the ankle collapses, the tibia is traveling forward and they overload the knee (bend the knee) and quad in return. Same with the hamstrings. If they are weak your body will shorten them at the knee to prevent excessive tension to be applied to them, and since the knee becomes bent then the quad will be overloaded, and your knee will give out.

It's interesting because both these scenarios will make you think you have weak quads.

I'm learning a helluva lot here. Thanks for your input.  :highfive:

It definitely felt sometimes that the knee was "giving out". I was looking back through the footage last night and there was a time when I threw up an alley (which was the only perfect throw all day btw) and got up decent speed only to have the knee give out. Obviously something I need to address and probably now is the perfect time to do that given I'm going to be squatting lighter for the next month at least. Will give me a chance to strengthen the hams and calves and maybe drop a couple of kgs (that part I'm not looking forward to).

Thanks again for your help on this.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

Raptor

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Re: Two Hands Two Feet
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 07:20:32 am »
+1
It's easy to see that for you since you have such a low speed run-up. You're basically walking out there and jumping with such a low speed. Since the one-leg jump has much less strength to be applied due to a single leg muscles power output, you need to compensate by having good initial speed that basically makes you lighter. The one-leg jump is about conserving what you're already worked for to generate (the run up) and converting that into vertical momentum.

Compare yourself with me here:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmODiHirz6o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmODiHirz6o</a>

Even though it's a missed dunk, see the huge difference in speed. I kinda pushed to get really fast there and that's a bit over my controllable speed though. And obviously you can't LITERALLY compare to me or anybody else because of so many factors affecting approach speed, but still... something to think about.

I think the "correct" equation of jumping should be movement efficiency * structure * power ... you need to see where you need to improve. If you have decent structure (and flexibility goes to structure as well since it alters the posture and center of mass) and you have power then maybe you should improve your movement efficiency, which means you need to jump more often.