Author Topic: analyse my squat bar path  (Read 8939 times)

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entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2013, 11:13:04 am »
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Re: analyse my squat bar path
^Cool , i thought i was the only one dumb enough to make pictures like that comparing front and back squatting form :D

This is from 2 weeks ago, 60kg backsquats and 55kg front squats. It is the 8th rep of 3d set for both, wanted to see how bad my worse rep is:



dont mind if i do.

So what I see there is a bar path that isn't aligned with midfoot. It appears to be closer to your toes. Not such a problem now, but when you approach 1.5bw on the bar, you'll find it become increasingly harder to wrestle that bar up in a straight line. This is because anything off midfoot is an inherently unstable position. We're just looking at descent here. Ascent is always slightly ahead of descent, so if you're too much off on the descent, you're definitely in trouble on the ascent. So if we fix our descent, we improve our chances of a vertical (non squat morning) ascent.

also, nice shoes. ... wanna fuck? *groan*  :uhhhfacepalm:
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2013, 11:48:49 am »
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^Agree on everything. I am trying to fix that midfoot thing, i have some progress but not there yet. One important cue ( which i am sure i am the last on the planet to discover ) is resetting between reps. A little off at descent, ascent follows, a little more off on next, bla bla bla , by rep 5 you are squatmorninging. Also i tend to fall down too fast, which of course causes loss of the descent path control. Lance gave a cue for than in the past: you don't need to make it a slow tempo rep, but you can start slow and then once your descent is under control, speed it up.
Just thinking loud here for anyone who might benefit from that chat.

also, nice shoes. ... wanna fuck? *groan*  :uhhhfacepalm:

Don't be cheap, you play on the big league now with the Romaleos 2, my powerperfect IIs are half the price.  :-*
Uhmmmm, did you get a good look at raptor's adipowers ???  :derp:
woot

Kingfish

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2013, 05:32:40 pm »
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True raptor. I'd been meaning to ask KF about that. How important is your kalf training to your squatting prowess? Would you recommend I start to train my calves too if i'm after a stronger more athletic squat?

not important but more lean mass on the calves is always a good thing. helps keep your ankles healthy.

Respeck. If you ever wanna try your hand at internet coaching im putting my hands up as a keen volunteer. Would love to have VMO's like that, i didnt' even know such a muscle existed lol :P

i spent most of my time in the 6-8reps x 6-8sets when i was lifting up to 385s (2.0-2.1BW max). 

my vertical summit journal is full of those rest-pause squats without unloading the bar.. very high volume. long rest. protein overload.

375x7
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsRFP4s1VYY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsRFP4s1VYY</a>
5'10" | 208lbs | 38 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 495x1| standing VJ - 40"|

That which that does not kill us, makes us stronger.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

Raptor

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2013, 05:59:10 pm »
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So at your max you were doing 64 reps (8 sets of 8 reps) per workout? wtf

entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2013, 11:05:01 am »
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True raptor. I'd been meaning to ask KF about that. How important is your kalf training to your squatting prowess? Would you recommend I start to train my calves too if i'm after a stronger more athletic squat?

not important but more lean mass on the calves is always a good thing. helps keep your ankles healthy.

Respeck. If you ever wanna try your hand at internet coaching im putting my hands up as a keen volunteer. Would love to have VMO's like that, i didnt' even know such a muscle existed lol :P

i spent most of my time in the 6-8reps x 6-8sets when i was lifting up to 385s (2.0-2.1BW max). 

my vertical summit journal is full of those rest-pause squats without unloading the bar.. very high volume. long rest. protein overload.

Noted. I am already on the 6s volume. I usually 4-5 sets of 6s total. I dabbled with 8s and 10s too when I was doing a mass gain, they were cool. I have really really small muscles around my knees, my calves are small as are my vmos and hamstrings near the knee. My hamstring higher up is massive though (relative to my leg). Would like more mass around my knee for stabilisation at the bottom of a squat. I think that will really help me. If i'm right about that, putting on some knee sleeves will give me a lot of benefit (i dont have any but that's my theory).

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entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2013, 11:10:12 am »
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I HAVE MADE A BREAK THROUGH!!

:ibsquatting: :ibsquatting: :ibsquatting: :ibsquatting: :ibsquatting:

I figured it out today, partially in the lab and later on paper. Here is how I fix my off midfoot barpath on the descent - knees go out and forward. This will keep me balanced over midfoot instead of drifting far too forward.

The way I discovered this is actually by doing that on the ascent and realising the same principle should apply on teh descent! On ascent, after passing the sticking point, my knees went out, and this kept me from squat morning.
New technique
So here is how I do a technically correct midfoot squat on paper for next time. Keep weight on heels, stand upright make sure i'm not leaning at all. Brace abs etc etc. Then begin descent, knees break out and forward. At the bottom position my knees are held out. As I come out of the bottom, my knees come in to give me quad/glute drive out of the bottom, as i pass the sticking point, knees go back out. So it's a sequence of knees out, knees in, knees out in that order. Next time i'll have caps of bar path.

I tried this technique partially today, only just for ascent and it made a big difference, suddenly my squat became quad dominant, i remained upright and i could pop out and lock out like a boss. When I make the change on the descent, it will give me a better bar path on the descent which means i'm in a better position at the bottom, which means i'm going to have a much better position on the ascent. b00m! problem solved.

 :headbang:

to test this out, i will put my money where my mouth is, next time i squat, which follows after 1 days rest, i'm going to put 135kg on the bar and front squat it ATG without a belt. Keep in mind just 3 days ago i got buried by a 132.5kg FS and today I got it without much fuss, so it's not just some bullshit internet analysis, i've video proof to back it up.
 :ibsquatting:
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:49:23 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2013, 06:20:42 am »
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Form change is basically to do with knees. They go in at the start of the concentric, and then OUT as I go past the sticking point. This is new for me, it's the antidote to the squatmorning sickness I so desperately needed to cure.

you are using too much weight if you had to grind the knees to get the rep. uneven stress on the knee is not healthy specially when supporting near-max weight.

A lot of Chinese lifters do it and Dan Green also recommends it. IDK how to feel about it because what you say has also occurred to me as a potential trouble.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI</a>

KF can you expain what is grinding the knees? i'm not sure what you mean.

I agree with joe though. The intentional knee-in push movement to initiate the concentric is something you see with all the top lifters, from Broz's to chinese olympians to top east european lifters. Dan Green is one proponent of it, his story is pretty interesting because he started out as a typical north american PL who noticed he was getting his ass handed to him by stronger, leaner, lighter russian lifters. He noticed they had massive quads and they used a very quad dominant squatting style, so he adopted their style too. I've always done this naturally but when you do it intentionally it somehow gives you more pop out of the bottom of a squat.

The other part is the knee out after passing the sticking point -- this is new for me, i got it from watching one of broz's lifters and suddenly it just clicked. Now here is the interesting part, the video of yours you linked, you actually do the knees out after sticking point motion too :) Great minds think alike!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsRFP4s1VYY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsRFP4s1VYY</a>

As you come out of of the sticking point your knees go out. This is what I had been missing all along, it was the crucial thing. I knew my knees couldn't stay out the whole way ascent-to-descent, because there was that point at the bottom where my knees had to come in to get out of the hole. But what I didn't know, and what i've discovered is once i've got out of the hole, my knees going out give me that stability and uprightness which I really needed. The real breakthrough which I am hoping will work out for me, is applying this on descent. I'll test that today, will update what happens.
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LBSS

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2013, 09:00:20 am »
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wobble baby wobble baby wobble baby wobble
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
wednesday: fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2013, 09:21:57 am »
+1
^cool.


As promised here is a cap of my bar position from today's 135kg PR done with the new technique.

Acole might be able to help me here but I think midfoot is near where the tick starts on the NR2s?

It's not bad but still not middle. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2013, 01:36:32 pm »
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Was just viewing footage from today's squatting and I came across this rep of BACKSQUAT which I failed but notice my position



This is a deep, upright, midfoot heavy BACKSQUAT, which is never this deep for me. Any ideas on wtf happened here. Should I be able to do my normal backsquats this way. I guess I had to relax some muscles  that would normally be tight to get this position? which muscles, i don't remember either. It's interesting though. Might be something to explore further.
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entropy

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Re: analyse my squat bar path
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2013, 09:08:50 am »
+2
I explored it further, turns out, somehow I can do the very deep atg style backsquat after all. I did KF style paused backsquats today as a finisher to a very ordinary workout. I can definitely do it, i have the mobility and what not to do it. What's more, midfoot bar path occurs automatically without any extra effort on my part.  I dont even need $200 fucking weightlifing shoes to do it, i did these in my old ones just cause I dont wanna wear them out. Anyway.



I guess I just found my new squatting obsession when I start my cut :) Watch out KF, i'm coming for ya! haha.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat