Author Topic: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread  (Read 4784 times)

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LBSS

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2013, 02:28:06 pm »
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the last bit reminds me of adarq's pin squats from a couple of years ago.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

vag

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 02:37:32 pm »
+2
the last bit reminds me of adarq's pin squats from a couple of years ago.

Also that dude that did high bar halfs and quarters with 350+lbs when his full squat was 250 or less, it sure worked good for him too!  ;D
woot

LBSS

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 04:55:00 pm »
+1
the last bit reminds me of adarq's pin squats from a couple of years ago.

Also that dude that did high bar halfs and quarters with 350+lbs when his full squat was 250 or less, it sure worked good for him too!  ;D

oh yeah, who was that guy?  :almostascoolasnyancat:
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

pelham32

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 05:38:04 pm »
0
I tried the half squats from pins and I really liked them and felt they carried over well. But they are so much worse for  my lower back I had to switch to HB full.. This discussion is great, lets keep it going. I'm interested to see what a 100lb increase in my HB squat will bring me to and that 405lbs has been my journey for the past couple of months.

I believe Kelly Bagget was spot on when he suggested approaching it from joint angles. This has been working for me in regards to jumping.
So for me, it became a HB full squat and a trap bar RDL..

LBSS, go ahead and switch to HB. There would really be no cons to switching and might freshen your training.

Goal

windmill consistently/ touch top of the square consistently



weight= 193
height= 6'3 1/2
highest touch= top of the square, which is 11'4

Raptor

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 05:51:19 pm »
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Well as far as I'm concerned, when I low bar squat I can maintain a more vertical shin angle (it still travels forward, but not as much as in a high bar squat) and the knee suffers less. That's why I can squat low bar and I can't high bar. When I squat high bar that thing that moves in my knee, in the lateral "hole" of my right knee, when I get to about 20 degrees of flexion, starts to do some damage. Damage that can be avoided by squatting low bar.

It might be that my hip (and not only hip) flexibility sucks so bad that I really really load the knee and the quads when I high bar squat. For example, I couldn't even do a empty barbell overhead squat IN OLYMPIC LIFTING SHOES today. Granted, with a pretty narrow stance but still. I was able to do them with good form using a 10 kg bar though.

Not to mention front squats... with an empty barbell and o-lifting shoes on, the bar doesn't even touch my chest, let alone sit on the shoulders. It sits entirely in the hands, with elbows pointed down. There's no way to make it sit on the chest (don't even mention a proper rack position) unless I increase the weight so the weight of the bar presses on my hands more. Otherwise... no chance, no matter what grip I choose.

So there are a ton of inflexbilities there.

LBSS

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 11:59:54 am »
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tried high bar last night. unpossible due to intense discomfort caused by the pressure of even an empty bar on my traps. i'd call myself a pansy or something and tell myself to get over it but it was just not happening. tried all kinds of arm angles and amounts of tension in the traps and it's just painful to have the bar up there. noted this in my journal, as well.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

Raptor

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 12:29:05 pm »
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Huh? How is that even possible? I don't get it. I mean I'd get it from a 200 kg bar but from an empty bar? wtf...

TKXII

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 01:40:11 pm »
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I disagree with whoever said Kingfish's squat looks more like a LBBS.

I didn't say that though. According to my heuristic of squats, I said Kings HBBS is more PC dominant compared to LBSS' LBBS which is leg dominant. And I gave my reasoning why I think they look that way.


no way to tell without EMG data. You provided no reasoning, only your analysis of your observations, which don't go very deep without any real data. How can KF's squat be more PC dominant than LBSS's when LBSS's hips are way behind the center of mass compared to KF at the bottom of squat?? Did you look at the hip angles? LBSS's hip angle looks slightly more acute than KF's, and he looks to good morning the rep a tiny bit, whereas I don't see that in KF's video.

And of course, I hope you are looking at the END of LBSS's clip where his perceived exertion is much higher, that would only be fair since we are comparing that video to a max attempt from KF. If we look at the last set, we see that LBSS is not as upright as he was during his warmups. A MAX attempt is going to recruit a lot of muscle, in back and legs.

http://www.adarq.org/article-video-discussion/form-check-squats/

quote from LBSS
"@avishek and adarq: feet are shoulder-width. i feel the squats pretty much everywhere, although biased more towards calves/hamstrings/glutes than towards quads. that used not to be the case, i think my stance has widened a couple of inches this year and i do feel it less in my quads than i used to. "

"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Kingfish

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 09:59:08 pm »
+2
my quad driven olympic squat... take note of the concentric. best described by lance.. it is a standing leg extension.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ioixaGrKEA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ioixaGrKEA</a>

posterior chain and everything else does their thing only after the initial burst of momentum coming from the legs. there is no conscious heel pushing or any of that crap. just unbend the knees by pushing against the floor with enough power and let that initial momentum force the rest of the body to go upright.
5'10" | 208lbs | 38 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 495x1| standing VJ - 40"|

That which that does not kill us, makes us stronger.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

TKXII

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 08:54:48 am »
0
my quad driven olympic squat... take note of the concentric. best described by lance.. it is a standing leg extension.


That's so beast.

So where if you were to provide a rough estimate of what muscles you feel are most active during that concentric, what percentage would go to glutes, quads, and hams? Alternatively: glutes, calves, hamstrings, plantar flexors, tibialis anterior, VMO, and vastus lateralis?
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Kingfish

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2013, 06:19:24 pm »
0
my quad driven olympic squat... take note of the concentric. best described by lance.. it is a standing leg extension.


That's so beast.

So where if you were to provide a rough estimate of what muscles you feel are most active during that concentric, what percentage would go to glutes, quads, and hams? Alternatively: glutes, calves, hamstrings, plantar flexors, tibialis anterior, VMO, and vastus lateralis?

thanks. mostly the low-mid quads, some glutes. 60/40

if i really pause long and deep - some hamstrings.

barely feel anything in the calves.




5'10" | 208lbs | 38 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 495x1| standing VJ - 40"|

That which that does not kill us, makes us stronger.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

Raptor

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2013, 05:32:45 pm »
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LBSS should try harder to do some high bar squats. I did them today ATG (OL shoes definitely helped) and they felt amazing. Such a different leg sensation than the low bar squat, even doing them with a weight like 80 kg like I did today.

LBSS

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Re: HB vs LB and carryover - lbss self-centered thread
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2013, 10:22:57 pm »
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yeah my quad/PC ratio is definitely more like 30/70. am trying to do HB but will need to work through shoulder issues before i can use it for work sets. using HB during warm up made my knees go noticeably farther forward during work sets but tbh i can't remember how the quad/PC split felt.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses