Author Topic: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?  (Read 6694 times)

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Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2012, 01:07:02 pm »
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The question is - how can you increase the maximum controllable speed in the one-leg jump?

The old standby is speed reserve.  Basically, that the more speed you have... the faster you can run under control.  But, really their is more than one way to skin a cat.  All triple jumpers are elastic, but you within the population of triple jumpers you def see those whose strategy is to maintain speed and those whose strategy is to sacrifice speed for a more forceful upward impulse.  Here is a quick high-speed camera analysis... it's about long jumping rather than vertical, but it's a good lesson to realize that two of the greatest in the world do things in a very very different fashion:

http://www.arielnet.com/cloud/Publications/Show/adi-pub-01140/long-jump-technique-power-or-speed

It probably has a lot to do with your training background as well. Back when I wasn't strength training at all (and weighed 67 kg) I used to jump at a constant speed with a long approach. Now, at 82 kg and with a strength training background, I use a short approach and an acceleration jump (not at a constant speed).

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2012, 03:50:41 pm »
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Bumping thread because circumstances have changed. My gym closes for good on Friday and so for at least the next month or two I won't have regular access to a basketball rim. Don't think I'll even have space to sprint or do running jumps of any kind.

So, I'm thinking I should do what steven-miller and KF told me to do long ago, which is suck it up and squat a whole lot, with light plyos for movement efficiency and SVJ/light jump squats for power. And eat a lot. The one thing the new gym has that my current one doesn't is a jump mat, so I'll have a reliable way to track SVJ (and multi-jumps, for that matter). Main goals would be: squat 405, SVJ 32. Bodyweight whatever, but presumably >10 pounds heavier than now, mid-180s. Then lose weight while maintaining as much strength as possible.

Workouts something like this:

- warm up
- light plyos x 2-3 exercises (MR half tuck, pogos, line hops, hurdle jumps, short sprints or bounds if possible, etc.)
- SVJ x 8-10 total reps OR jump squat 2 x 3 x 25-30%
- Smolov Base Mesocycle day X
- OHP 2 x 8
- weighted chin ups 2 x 8
- core
- stretch

Thoughts? It might be good for me to have to take my focus away from the court for a bit and focus on strength and power. My current block has gotten me nowhere fast, as far as I can tell. And honestly, I'm a little discouraged by my lack of progress since August. It would be nice to switch to something linear for a while and get my confidence back.

Of course, I will continue to pursue the possibility of using the old gym's court on my own terms with the church.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
wednesday: fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:59 pm »
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Why don't you do something similar to what I'm doing - conjugate periodization?

For your particular case you could work more on your lower leg with plyos and stuff, work with rhythmic jump squats while maintaining your squat (or trying to increase it, but not being the main focus).

I mean you've trained so much strength-wise... you can't lose too much if you give this a shot, especially if you care about your maximal jump which will most likely be a running jump.

acole14

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2012, 07:51:13 pm »
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I guess you have to ask yourself: how much of a factor is squatting strength in your jump? I guess DL is more reliant on quadriceps strength, but hams, glutes and calves are all important in producing some force as well as your stabilising muscles for the transfer of speed --> plant. Maybe you need to do more assistance exercises for those parts. Do you do (R/SL)DLs, weighted calf raises or BSS? Maybe you could throw them in.

Also, will squatting heavily and gaining weight really push you towards your goal faster IF your goal is to dunk on a 10' rim and 7'6'' reach? With all due respect to KF and steven-miller (not that he's around any more), I think your strength levels are good, and given that (as I said a few weeks ago), there is such a discrepancy between your boss squat numbers and your SVJ, there is still a lot of potential to be tapped into, and that extends to your running as well (as I said a few weeks ago, if you could improve your explosiveness to the point where your squat/SVJ makes sense, then your running jumps would have to benefit as well).

Don't blur the line between strength numbers and jump height too much, unless you're just intending to SVJ dunk. Then it's very important. I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that the running jump is more dependent on speed utilisation and stability in the plant phase than raw strength. In an ideal world (I know you prob can't do this atm) you could maybe utilise more track work, and more pure jumps sessions just focusing on training your body in the motion of the DLRVJ. I know you did do a lot of DLRVJ practice in the past, but it was always within a mixed workout. Maybe that prevents you from truly giving a max effort jump. I think that's key to making progress, actually getting to your max jump once every 2-3 weeks in a periodisation setup.

Given all that, if you really can't access the proper facilities to do track work and jumps at 10' ring, then squatting + eating hard could be the way to go. I'd consider  Raptor's setup though, or just a set-up where the focus is to increase your explosiveness so that your SVJ is around 35'' without too much of a BW change. Something like:

Day 1: Quad/calves - whatever you want to do to strengthen these - squats, calf raises etc. Maybe work up to heavy 1x6 (not too much volume but good for strength work).

One really good day of rest

Day 2: P-chain work - BSSs (for glutes), RDLs, maybe lunges.

Another really good day of rest

Day 3: Explosive work: Light pogos/tucks/depth jumps, then loaded rhythmic jump squats, KB swings (these are badass). Shouldn't fatigue you too much. Get a shitload of rest this night, and eat well.

Day 4: Good warmup, then 10-15 SVJs, record each one, stop when you're dropping off.

Rest, then start again. Keep doing this until your SVJ plateaus, then maybe look to start a block of RVJ/speed work (if possible). I have NO idea if this is an optimal set-up, I'm sure others would change the order or whatever. But something along those lines where your explosiveness/SVJ is the main objective in the short-term rather than packing on more mass/strength.

Sorry for the long post, just got rolling a bit  :P.

vag

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2012, 03:49:46 am »
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I agree with acole , you always neglect p-chain if i am not wrong. Put some RDL/BSS somwehere in there and stick with them , progress until pchain is strong.
Edit: I also agree with raptor on the other thread , you also neglect calves.

About plyos, i really like this kellyb article:

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/plyomyths.html

Quote
Myth #2 - Plyometric action is a highly trainable quality =======================================================

How much additional force you get from a "plyometric" movement is mostly genetic and unique to you as an individual. True plyometric ability isn't something you can really impact through training to a large extent. In fact, it's likely to get less as you grow as an athlete even as you progress as an athlete. HUH!? Before everybody goes off the deep end with that statement let me explain:
Let's say your standing stationary vertical jump is currently 20 inches and your 3 step countermovement vert is 26 inches
That basically means you're getting 6 additional inches from plyometric action.
What I'm saying is you're unlikely to ever see that difference grow much. It can (and usually does) get smaller, but it rarely grows much, even as your overall performance gets better. The general trend in any developing athlete is to get more proficient at exerting force under smaller windows of opportunity so he finds over time he doesn't need as much wind-up to generate the same amount of power. This is even true for people like high jumpers, who seek to benefit as much as possible from plyometric action.
In sticking with this same hypothetical example, lets say you improve your stationary jump from 20 up to 35 inches. You're still unlikely to find more than a 6 inch difference in your running countermovement jump (41 inches), regardless of what type of training you did to get there. Generally speaking, the longer your limbs and legs (particularly lower legs), the greater you'll benefit from plyometric wind-up. The shorter your legs, the more likely you are to jump just as high or move just as well from a virtual standstill.

Plyos are good and all but i wouldn't use them more than what you typed, low-impact for mobility/efficiency maintenance and injury avoidance.
Even jsut SVJs could be enough but a few extra movements won't hurt for sure.

So yes , i am with KF & steven miller:
Go nuts on squat >>> achieve mid-30's SVJ >>> enjoy bonus effect of high-30's RVJ (dunking).

If i were you i would do just what you typed with some pchain progression and calves work in there too.

Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 04:05:27 am by vag »
woot

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2012, 01:58:52 pm »
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haha, vag, contradicted yourself a little bit there. you're with acole, and also with kf/steven-miller?

you guys are all right, though, i do neglect supplemental p-chain work for my lower body. so i think maybe it's time to turn that into a focus for a while. smolov doesn't really work with other leg stuff, volume is super high as it is. so that's probably not the right move now. i don't want to cut back on squatting frequency as much as acole suggested, though. here's my compromise (warm ups will include glute activation, light plyos and jumping rope):

day 1

- warm up
- SVJ x 10-15, go for PR's
- squat x5
- hip thrust 3 x 10-15
- calf raise 3 x 20-30
- OHP 2x8
- chin up 2x8
- core
- stretch

day 2

- warm up
- SVJ x 5-10
- MSEM squat x 6-10
- RDL 3x8-10
- BSS 3x8-10e
- OHP 2x8
- chin up 2x8
- core
- stretch

day 3

- warm up
- SVJ x 5-10
- depth jump 3 x 4
- KB swing 3 x 10-15
- OHP 2x8
- chin up 2x8
- core
- stretch

day 4

- warm up
- SVJ x 10-15, go for PR's
- bench 3x8-10
- row 3x8-10
- core
- stretch
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 05:35:03 pm by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
wednesday: fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

vag

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2012, 06:32:13 am »
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I meant that i agree with acole regarding p-chain, not the whole post. Not that it matters anyway...
woot

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2012, 07:34:17 am »
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I meant that i agree with acole regarding p-chain, not the whole post. Not that it matters anyway...

Are you kidding? Your wish is his command.

vag

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2012, 12:36:05 pm »
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LOL , nice try raptor!

Does not matter anyway = my programming advice was clear so i didn't want to spam the topic anymore talking about if i was contradictive or not. Which i am doing now... i'm out!  8)
woot