Author Topic: 2018 US Open  (Read 575 times)

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adarqui

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 03:51:58 pm »
0
highlights.. man thiem was hitting insane shots, really made nadal dig deep af.

NADAL.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HI_LgY4edw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HI_LgY4edw</a>


adarqui

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2018, 05:10:30 pm »
0
watching Serena right now.. man she got destroyed in the first set. Hoping she can get this huge W.

Osaka is damn good but come Serena leggo.

adarqui

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 05:30:46 pm »
0
serena gets some "coaching violation" .. then breaks her racquet, gets another violation, automatic point deduction, then goes off on the chair.

lots of stuff happens to serena in tennis.

no idea if she received instructions or not from her coach, but i'd take her word for it that she didn't. she was adamant that she didn't receive any instructions. she demanded an apology from the chair. kinda crazy.

she just got broken afterwards, hope she can get back in this :/


adarqui

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2018, 10:46:03 pm »
+1
sad that it had to end like that.. what a mess :/

to me, the 2nd/3rd violations were justified.. but, it's all based on that first violation (coaching instructions), which was absolute bullshit.

first, the chair should have simply warned both sides (& perhaps coaches as well). To give Serena a violation like that at such a critical time, without warning, is absolute garbage. That caused Serena to "lose it". ie, "here we go again".

very unfortunate, especially for Osaka.. she played incredible. She looked really distraught over how it turned out :/

never saw anything like that in tennis.. other than maybe serena being ejected after the "threat".. but this was pretty unique, especially because of the fan/crowd reactions.

was painful to watch.

acole14

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2018, 07:20:17 am »
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first, the chair should have simply warned both sides (& perhaps coaches as well). To give Serena a violation like that at such a critical time, without warning, is absolute garbage. That caused Serena to "lose it". ie, "here we go again".

I feel that's excusing Serena's subsequent behaviour, to blame the umpire for not warning her about a very well-known violation in the game. I disagree with 'warnings' for offences in general. What's the point of the rule if it's arbitrarily enforced depending on context? It's a weird rule anyway (coaches are paid to coach IMO) but I understand that tennis has a gladiatorial spirit where the players should be battling their opponent with no outside influence. If she should be mad at anyone, it should be the coach, not the umpire. Then compounding it by racket-smashing and abusing the ump is just bad situational awareness/brain fade, like not knowing how many fouls you have.

This is the third US Open final where Serena has completely overshadowed the effort of the eventual winner with meltdowns (Clijsters 2009 and Stosur 2011). I think it really sucks to put an asterisk on someone's title like that, i.e. "if the other player hadn't melted down and given a game away, maybe they would have won, but I'll never know etc". This was the worst of the three by a mile though.

seifullaah73

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2018, 12:48:06 pm »
+1
sad that it had to end like that.. what a mess :/

to me, the 2nd/3rd violations were justified.. but, it's all based on that first violation (coaching instructions), which was absolute bullshit.

first, the chair should have simply warned both sides (& perhaps coaches as well). To give Serena a violation like that at such a critical time, without warning, is absolute garbage. That caused Serena to "lose it". ie, "here we go again".

very unfortunate, especially for Osaka.. she played incredible. She looked really distraught over how it turned out :/

never saw anything like that in tennis.. other than maybe serena being ejected after the "threat".. but this was pretty unique, especially because of the fan/crowd reactions.

was painful to watch.

It was painful to watch. I agree the chair should have gave a warning like it is used to doing, I believe her if she says she didn't receive coaching instructions. I think this may have been the reason to cause her to act out of character and throwing the racket.

Also the warning should help if there is any ambiguity in any violation such as advising no communication be made so as to avoid any future doubtful violations.
----------------------------------------------------------------
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A
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>>    Jump Squats
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>> depth comfortably with moderate loads
>>    Calf Raises
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adarqui

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2018, 01:57:42 pm »
+2
first, the chair should have simply warned both sides (& perhaps coaches as well). To give Serena a violation like that at such a critical time, without warning, is absolute garbage. That caused Serena to "lose it". ie, "here we go again".

I feel that's excusing Serena's subsequent behaviour,

it's not excusing it at all. but that call set things in motion.

Quote
to blame the umpire for not warning her about a very well-known violation in the game.

well known? that's never called.

Quote
I disagree with 'warnings' for offences in general. What's the point of the rule if it's arbitrarily enforced depending on context?

tennis is all about concrete rules. how do you apply one of the few subjective rules without giving a warning? I've watched tons of tennis, i've rarely seen that rule enforced. Also, i've seen chair umps give warnings more than i've seen an actual violation.

you can only enforce a subjective rule arbitrarily.

Quote
It's a weird rule anyway (coaches are paid to coach IMO) but I understand that tennis has a gladiatorial spirit where the players should be battling their opponent with no outside influence. If she should be mad at anyone, it should be the coach, not the umpire.

coaches often "instruct" during the match, doesn't mean the athlete is actually looking at them receiving the instructions. coaches coach, even if the athlete isn't looking at them.

Quote
Then compounding it by racket-smashing and abusing the ump is just bad situational awareness/brain fade, like not knowing how many fouls you have.

imho the racquet smashing isn't even a problem. she never even mentioned it. she knew she'd probably get a violation for it. men smash their racquets all the time, especially guys like Djoko / Murray / Kyrgios / Roddick etc.

I don't like racquet smashing but it shouldn't really be a "bad sign" of anything. It's just a rare sign of extreme frustration. Plenty of the greatest tennis players smash their racquets on occasion. Here's a Djoko racquet smash compilation:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derAHAnpelw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derAHAnpelw</a>

Her worst offense (to me) was calling the chair a "thief". That was stupid. But again, i've seen people chew out chair umps all the time and not get violations. Here's Federer dropping F bombs:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koTTY3QuLcQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koTTY3QuLcQ</a>

She lost her composure, that's all on her. However, that first coaching violation was still bullshit.

Serena is probably already on "edge" with some of the treatment of female athletes vs men. She's not someone who can just ignore it. Some of the stuff that happened in this US Open adds context to her meltdown - I mean she even mentioned this incident. Here's a woman receiving a violation for turning her shirt inside out:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2UIBboqUNo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2UIBboqUNo</a>

I've seen men do shirt changes during the changeover TONS of times, especially Nadal/Djokovic etc.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPIAAZS3V4I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPIAAZS3V4I</a>

Tennis has historically been a "boys club", that shit drives Serena crazy. I think it factors in to some of her blowups.. Boys club & "race" issues are always on her mind, she deals with alot of it.

Quote
This is the third US Open final where Serena has completely overshadowed the effort of the eventual winner with meltdowns (Clijsters 2009 and Stosur 2011). I think it really sucks to put an asterisk on someone's title like that, i.e. "if the other player hadn't melted down and given a game away, maybe they would have won, but I'll never know etc". This was the worst of the three by a mile though.

Some people might be saying "if she didn't melt down you never know", but Osaka was on fire, I doubt Serena wins that match without the melt down. Though, Serena was up 3-1 in the 2nd set when that coaching violation call happened. She went directly to the chair and states she didn't receive instructions and she's not a cheater. That call really messed her up, the idea that she was "cheating". A warning would have been a good idea. A warning would have also been a good idea before taking a game from her, ie: "Serena if you continue I will have to take away a game".

IMHO the foot fault reaction/threat is the worst. This was the biggest meltdown because it played out over several games.. but that foot fault/"threat"/DQ on match point (to her opponent) was the worst IMHO.



Finally. From what i've seen:, most everyone seems to be coming out AGAINST that coaching call violation. Former/current pros, analysts etc, everyone saying that was pure bullshit. Most people don't seem to think the thief comment is a violation either, given that men get away with worse.

That ref abused his power.

adarqui

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2018, 04:15:54 pm »
+1
sad that it had to end like that.. what a mess :/

to me, the 2nd/3rd violations were justified.. but, it's all based on that first violation (coaching instructions), which was absolute bullshit.

first, the chair should have simply warned both sides (& perhaps coaches as well). To give Serena a violation like that at such a critical time, without warning, is absolute garbage. That caused Serena to "lose it". ie, "here we go again".

very unfortunate, especially for Osaka.. she played incredible. She looked really distraught over how it turned out :/

never saw anything like that in tennis.. other than maybe serena being ejected after the "threat".. but this was pretty unique, especially because of the fan/crowd reactions.

was painful to watch.

It was painful to watch. I agree the chair should have gave a warning like it is used to doing, I believe her if she says she didn't receive coaching instructions. I think this may have been the reason to cause her to act out of character and throwing the racket.

Also the warning should help if there is any ambiguity in any violation such as advising no communication be made so as to avoid any future doubtful violations.

x2 ^^

also, this seems to be the opinion of most current/former pros i've seen interviewed. For a subjective rule like that, and the verbal abuse one he levied later, warn first.

LBSS

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2018, 12:47:35 am »
+1
it's also important to keep in mind that serena has been on the butt end of racist and sexist treatment for her entire life, and as a tennis pro for 23 years (had to look that up but holy shit). a lot of the backlash against her - e.g. from ross tucker, which really disappointed but maybe shouldn't have surprised me - has been nakedly sexist.

it sucks for osaka because she's such a fan and it must have been unpleasant for her to be crushing her idol as her idol melted down and the spotlight shifted away from her greatest professional achievement to this drama. and of course serena is an adult who is responsible for her own behavior. but to paraphrase someone on twitter: women are held to a higher standard of "decorum" than men. black people are held to a higher standard of "decorum" than white people. black women are held to the highest standard of "decorum." IMHO serena has more than earned the right to lose her temper when she feels like she's being treated unfairly. 
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acole14

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2018, 02:05:54 am »
0
first, the chair should have simply warned both sides (& perhaps coaches as well). To give Serena a violation like that at such a critical time, without warning, is absolute garbage. That caused Serena to "lose it". ie, "here we go again".

I feel that's excusing Serena's subsequent behaviour,

it's not excusing it at all. but that call set things in motion.

But you're saying that one violation (with no penalty attached at that stage) caused the subsequent meltdown. It didn't cause anything other than giving Serena a violation at that point in the match. It might have contributed to inflaming her mental state, but placing responsibility on the umpire is too extreme. Put yourself in the umpire's position. He sees the coach give coaching-like signals (picked up on camera). This is the final. How's it going to be for him if Serena then starts blowing the doors off the opponent, and he hasn't penalised the offending player? This is guy is also an apparent stickler for enforcing rules. Her team should have let her know this. Again, I mostly blame the coach for this, but Serena had to be more professional in that situation, she's experienced enough.

Quote
to blame the umpire for not warning her about a very well-known violation in the game.

well known? that's never called.

Yes, it is well-known? It's definitely called occasionally, but as I said, it's a stupid rule that should just be removed. Nadal's coach was infamous for getting away it and I've read tennis forums for years: its always being discussed. I have no inherent problem with coaching from the sidelines, it's a dumb rule, but it's a rule that both players were playing under and that's just the situation.

Quote
I disagree with 'warnings' for offences in general. What's the point of the rule if it's arbitrarily enforced depending on context?

tennis is all about concrete rules. how do you apply one of the few subjective rules without giving a warning? I've watched tons of tennis, i've rarely seen that rule enforced. Also, i've seen chair umps give warnings more than i've seen an actual violation.

you can only enforce a subjective rule arbitrarily.

I don't see why, because it's a subjective rule, warnings need be applied in every case. Of course, subjective calls are part of sport; my point was that context shouldn't matter in subjective arbitration. If the umpire sees what they deem as clear on-court coaching, they should pull the trigger whether it's the US open final or a Challenger qualifier, or whether the player has a history of meltdowns. In this case, the footage of the coaching was pretty obvious to me. If the umpire doesn't call that, I don't know when it would be called, and I don't think a warning is warranted just because of the context of the match - the coaching might have already influenced the outcome of the game. I agree that it's stupid rule though, and it should just go because it's too hard to detect and control with the players and coaches being in direct sight of one another, and because coaching is what they're paid to do.

Quote
It's a weird rule anyway (coaches are paid to coach IMO) but I understand that tennis has a gladiatorial spirit where the players should be battling their opponent with no outside influence. If she should be mad at anyone, it should be the coach, not the umpire.

coaches often "instruct" during the match, doesn't mean the athlete is actually looking at them receiving the instructions. coaches coach, even if the athlete isn't looking at them.

Well, if they know the rule (and they do)...then they shouldn't be! The major problem with the violation (apart from it existing at all) is that it's a player violation, not a coach violation. It should be: if the umpire sees that sort of signal, the coaching staff are watching the game from the locker room with lighter pockets from that point, and the player doesn't accrue a violation. Serena kept taking it personally because it implies that she was cheating, which I didn't believe, but that's the rule both players are playing under. They just got caught out.

Quote
Then compounding it by racket-smashing and abusing the ump is just bad situational awareness/brain fade, like not knowing how many fouls you have.

imho the racquet smashing isn't even a problem. she never even mentioned it. she knew she'd probably get a violation for it. men smash their racquets all the time, especially guys like Djoko / Murray / Kyrgios / Roddick etc.

What I meant is: if you're playing bball on five fouls, you know to not go hacking at the ball, or trying to take a charge on a fast break. In tennis (as you know, for others who don't) it goes: [warning-->point penalty-->game penalty-->default] for each successive violation. So knowing you're already on one violation, keep cool if you get a call you don't agree with, and likely, nothing will come of it (easy to say at the keyboard I know, but these are professional players with a lot at stake).

Her worst offense (to me) was calling the chair a "thief". That was stupid. But again, i've seen people chew out chair umps all the time and not get violations. Here's Federer dropping F bombs:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koTTY3QuLcQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koTTY3QuLcQ</a>

She lost her composure, that's all on her. However, that first coaching violation was still bullshit.

Serena is probably already on "edge" with some of the treatment of female athletes vs men. She's not someone who can just ignore it. Some of the stuff that happened in this US Open adds context to her meltdown - I mean she even mentioned this incident. Here's a woman receiving a violation for turning her shirt inside out:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2UIBboqUNo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2UIBboqUNo</a>

I've seen men do shirt changes during the changeover TONS of times, especially Nadal/Djokovic etc.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPIAAZS3V4I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPIAAZS3V4I</a>

Tennis has historically been a "boys club", that shit drives Serena crazy. I think it factors in to some of her blowups.. Boys club & "race" issues are always on her mind, she deals with alot of it.

Yes, you could see it was a confluence of different emotional issues that Serena has been subjected to over the years coming out. I don't necessarily disagree with what she believed was happening, but it was just unprofessional to let it completely derail and overshadow the match. That's what the post-game press conference is for.

(I'm not in disagreement with any of the gender discrimination stuff raised by this, mostly because I can't find any data on whether there are umpiring discrepancies apart from anecdotal stuff, and drawing broad conclusions from these insular cases is tricky).

Quote
This is the third US Open final where Serena has completely overshadowed the effort of the eventual winner with meltdowns (Clijsters 2009 and Stosur 2011). I think it really sucks to put an asterisk on someone's title like that, i.e. "if the other player hadn't melted down and given a game away, maybe they would have won, but I'll never know etc". This was the worst of the three by a mile though.

Some people might be saying "if she didn't melt down you never know", but Osaka was on fire, I doubt Serena wins that match without the melt down. Though, Serena was up 3-1 in the 2nd set when that coaching violation call happened.

That bolded hypothetical part is exactly what I'm talking about - there's a seed of doubt now. Maybe Osaka is not thinking about it right now, but in 20 years, she might look back at this match, and that seed of doubt will be there. Rather than a positive memory of blitzing her idol off the court, they'll most likely be bittersweet memories. I've had that happen to me when I was a junior in aths ("you only won because x switched to soccer/football/rugby") and it's a crappy thing to do, even indirectly. That's the major problem I have with this. I wish they could have just played the match out without the drama.

She went directly to the chair and states she didn't receive instructions and she's not a cheater. That call really messed her up, the idea that she was "cheating". A warning would have been a good idea. A warning would have also been a good idea before taking a game from her, ie: "Serena if you continue I will have to take away a game"

I just don't know why you need to coddle a player like Serena (or any player really, they're all professionals and should know the rules) - she's as experienced as they get. I watched the match live and they replayed her going at the umpire between games. It was prolonged dialogue, threatening to get him off her games and the liar/thief comments. She should know better at that point - it's playing with fire to do that on two violations, even if one was questionable. I think a warning at that stage is too generous for any player, a newbie or a veteran. In that Federer example, I don't think he abused the umpire to the degree that Serena did, but he swore and for sure, that's a violation. This speaks more to inconsistency between umpires' interpretation of violations. I think the umpire here made the right call based on the rule:

Quote
d) Verbal Abuse
 i) Players shall not at any time directly or indirectly verbally abuse an official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or any other person within the precincts of the tournament site. Verbal abuse is defined as any statement about an official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or any other person that implies dishonesty or is derogatory, insulting or otherwise abusive.

Finally. From what i've seen:, most everyone seems to be coming out AGAINST that coaching call violation. Former/current pros, analysts etc, everyone saying that was pure bullshit. Most people don't seem to think the thief comment is a violation either, given that men get away with worse.

That ref abused his power.

It's clearly a very polarising and complex issue because most of the coverage here in Aus was fairly mixed; I just don't buy that the umpire is the bad person here. One bad call can get shrugged off. Serena went the other way and, for the third time, overshadowed the victor. She's obviously established amongst the greats of tennis and it will be a minor blemish when it dies down (although the gender issues will be ongoing I think). I mostly just feel for the winner being deprived of their celebration. It was sickening to see her getting booed like that.

LBSS

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Re: 2018 US Open
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2018, 06:25:12 am »
+1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/tennis/at-us-open-power-of-serena-williams-and-naomi-osaka-is-overshadowed-by-an-umpires-power-play/2018/09/08/edbf46c8-b3b4-11e8-a20b-5f4f84429666_story.html?utm_term=.3a5d0c35c3c9

Quote
Chair umpire Carlos Ramos managed to rob not one but two players in the women’s U.S. Open final. Nobody has ever seen anything like it: An umpire so wrecked a big occasion that both players, Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams alike, wound up distraught with tears streaming down their faces during the trophy presentation and an incensed crowd screamed boos at the court. Ramos took what began as a minor infraction and turned it into one of the nastiest and most emotional controversies in the history of tennis, all because he couldn’t take a woman speaking sharply to him.

and from 2015: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/magazine/the-meaning-of-serena-williams.html

Quote
There is a belief among some African-Americans that to defeat racism, they have to work harder, be smarter, be better. Only after they give 150 percent will white Americans recognize black excellence for what it is. But of course, once recognized, black excellence is then supposed to perform with good manners and forgiveness in the face of any racist slights or attacks. Black excellence is not supposed to be emotional as it pulls itself together to win after questionable calls. And in winning, it’s not supposed to swagger, to leap and pump its fist, to state boldly, in the words of Kanye West, ‘‘That’s what it is, black excellence, baby.’’

Imagine you have won 21 Grand Slam singles titles, with only four losses in your 25 appearances in the finals. Imagine that you’ve achieved two ‘‘Serena Slams’’ (four consecutive Slams in a row), the first more than 10 years ago and the second this year. A win at this year’s U.S. Open would be your fifth and your first calendar-year Grand Slam — a feat last achieved by Steffi Graf in 1988, when you were just 6 years old. This win would also break your tie for the most U.S. Open titles in the Open era, surpassing the legendary Chris Evert, who herself has called you ‘‘a phenomenon that once every hundred years comes around.’’ Imagine that you’re the player John McEnroe recently described as ‘‘the greatest player, I think, that ever lived.’’ Imagine that, despite all this, there were so many bad calls against you, you were given as one reason video replay needed to be used on the courts. Imagine that you have to contend with critiques of your body that perpetuate racist notions that black women are hypermasculine and unattractive. Imagine being asked to comment at a news conference before a tournament because the president of the Russian Tennis Federation, Shamil Tarpischev, has described you and your sister as ‘‘brothers’’ who are ‘‘scary’’ to look at. Imagine.

The word ‘‘win’’ finds its roots in both joy and grace. Serena’s grace comes because she won’t be forced into stillness; she won’t accept those racist projections onto her body without speaking back; she won’t go gently into the white light of victory. Her excellence doesn’t mask the struggle it takes to achieve each win. For black people, there is an unspoken script that demands the humble absorption of racist assaults, no matter the scale, because whites need to believe that it’s no big deal. But Serena refuses to keep to that script. Somehow, along the way, she made a decision to be excellent while still being Serena. She would feel what she feels in front of everyone, in response to anyone. At Wimbledon this year, for example, in a match against the home favorite Heather Watson, Serena, interrupted during play by the deafening support of Watson, wagged her index finger at the crowd and said, ‘‘Don’t try me.’’ She will tell an audience or an official that they are disrespectful or unjust, whether she says, simply, ‘‘No, no, no’’ or something much more forceful, as happened at the U.S. Open in 2009, when she told the lineswoman, ‘‘I swear to God I am [expletive] going to take this [expletive] ball and shove it down your [expletive] throat.’’ And in doing so, we actually see her. She shows us her joy, her humor and, yes, her rage. She gives us the whole range of what it is to be human, and there are those who can’t bear it, who can’t tolerate the humanity of an ordinary extraordinary person.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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handstand + backflip + flag