Author Topic: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.  (Read 3362 times)

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scoobychau

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Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« on: June 11, 2014, 06:31:31 am »
0
Slight pain on the left foot still, Skipped a plyometric session last Sunday... probably will skip one more this weekend

Test vert slightly at lunch today:
Video->

https://vimeo.com/97911105

my vert... decreased.... officially  :-[
BIY - believe in yourself
Born 1980
190 lbs
Reach 7'5" (89")
2 legs leap 28"@06, 33"@11, 34.5"@2012, 37"@2013
Ankle Surgery - Dec 14, 07
Dunk Goal - Nov 11, 2012 (Daughter's 1 yrs old Bdays)

~SACRIFICE~
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HAD...
YOU MUST BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING
YOU'VE NEVER DONE! (by Thomas Jefferson)

LBSS

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 02:22:36 pm »
+1
approach is terrible, very much how mine used to be. lots of choppy little steps, no rhythm or acceleration.

try the t0ddday approach: start with an SVJ, then move to a one-step jump (at 0:20 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lukRYJaoFDA) and only add additional steps as they actually increase your vert. that's helped me immensely in getting to a consistent and smooth approach. i basically never do more than four steps now, starting just outside the three point line, because the fifth step doesn't help 99% of the time. if i'm feeling really fired up and awesome i'll sometimes step back to a fifth step but mostly four is all i can manage.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

Raptor

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 04:27:54 pm »
0
Maybe you should alternate in between the best (4 steps in LBSS's case) run-up and the "little bit worse" run-up, 5 steps in LBSS's case. So that you can kind of progress towards the longer, more reactive run-up (hopefully).

I'm of the same opinion about depth jumps. I would use a box that gives you the best jump, but also use a SLIGHTLY higher box (maybe by 10% or so) so that I can get used with the higher stimuli.

So I would alternate say a 20 inch box with a 22 inch box depth jump. Go with a 4 step run-up 5 times and with a 5 step run-up 5 times, repeat etc.

But in scooby's case, definitely what LBSS said about progressing is the best way right now.

scoobychau

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 12:59:26 am »
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Hi raptor, thanks for your suggestion regarding to the depth jump...

This remind me of something...
I actually test my vert on a aerobic box where i can adjust box height.
it was about 2 yrs ago when i did that.
So i found the so call Optimum height needed for training.

but now, I notice something is wrong when i preform depth jump,  My so call PEAK vert come from a JUMP where i have excessive Knee band during loading phase.
I felt as if i am a Rubber ball,  The harder i LAND (Free Drop) into my loading phase,  the more knee band, the higher i can jump.

WHICH now... i think I am WRONG,  Plyometric should be QUICK with ground contact...  Does not matter if i can get higher with Long ground contact... i should always been seeking QUICK reactive rebound.....


What do you think Raptor... may be i should just forget about the details, and jump UP as fast as possible while keeping in mind that minimize the ground contact time as the target.

==========================================
Thanks LBSS for the link... is that you in the video?
After all this year.. (7 yrs) in vert training.. i think i had seen so much video of successful traininer talked to so many of them in forum or facebook.... but never really know who is who..
BIY - believe in yourself
Born 1980
190 lbs
Reach 7'5" (89")
2 legs leap 28"@06, 33"@11, 34.5"@2012, 37"@2013
Ankle Surgery - Dec 14, 07
Dunk Goal - Nov 11, 2012 (Daughter's 1 yrs old Bdays)

~SACRIFICE~
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HAD...
YOU MUST BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING
YOU'VE NEVER DONE! (by Thomas Jefferson)

Raptor

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 04:12:06 am »
+1
Yes, the depth jump should be quick but the general consensus for 2-leg jumpers is that that comes second to the height attained. So the height you get on them should be the primary concern, and the quickness of the jump should come into a close 2nd place.

But considering what you're describing, you sound like you got more and more and more quad dominant as time went by. That's not necessarily bad news (a lot of the great dunkers are kind of quad dominant, even Derrick Rose was very quad dominant) but it's not good news either.

A different approach for you to consider is to do a lot of hip dominant movements. If you choose to squat, go for a low bar squat. Also do posterior chain assistance work where the emphasis is on the hip extension part of the deal. Think glute-hams, hip thrusts, reverse hypers etc. If you have enough money, buy a kettlebell (say, a 24 kg one) and do KB swings daily in your home. Make sure they are hip dominant, basically a hip hinge swing, not a squat swing (or else you're defeating the purpose of the exercise itself).

In terms of plyometric work, I would go with hip dominant plyos. What are these? They are bounds. It doesn't have to be 1-leg bounds. For you as a two leg jumper, you could go with 2-leg bounds for length. Just do these. They are more hip dominant than depth jumps (which are quad+calf dominant) and will teach you over time to use the hips better.

After you get good at 2-leg bounds for length, you can alternate in between 2-leg bounds for length and 2-leg bounds for height. The hip potentiation you get from doing the bounds for length will carry over a bit in the 2-leg bounds for height.

Check this post out by Lance:

http://www.adarq.org/lancests-performance-blog/some-jump-plyo-explosive-strength-workouts/

So, if I were to personally train you, my program for you would be this:

2 strength days, 2 plyo days



Monday: Strength 1

Low bar squat: 3x5 (use a weight that makes the last rep of the last set difficult. the other reps should be medium-difficulty (definitely not slow grinders) - increase weight when the last rep of the last set is still pretty fast);

Hip thrust: 3x10 (use the same weight rules as for the squat);

Calf raises: 3x12 (same weight rules);



Tuesday: Plyo 1

Dynamic warm-up

50m accelerations x 3 (gradually build up speed in a relaxed manner, don't go all-out)

(Double leg bounds for length + Double leg bounds for quickness) x 3 x 20m - Do one set of bounds for length, then do a set of bounds for quickness (where the length is not that important, but the ground contact time is - so shorter bounds, but less time spent on the ground). Repeat this cluster 3 times. Rest as long as you need in between sets.

Donkey ankle bounces: 3x15

Stretch



Wednesday: Active rest - go play some ball, do some easy running, even try some jumps if you're fresh enough, BUT DON'T GET FATIGUED. Remember, it's REST day. So go and play around a bit but at the first sign (or even before) fatigue, go home and stretch and recover.



Thrusday: Strength 2

Deadlift: 3x5 (work up to a heavy set of leg-driven deadlifts (don't use your back to lift it, it won't help your athleticism) and then take 10 kg or so off the bar and do 2 more sets of 5);

Natural glute-ham raise: 3x6 (put a lot of padding under your knees (aerobic mats, spounges etc) and use as much assistance with the arms as needed);

Calf raises: 3x10 (use a heavier weight than on Monday, advance when the last rep of the last set is still fast, DON'T BOUNCE by the way - do them completely under control, slow eccentric, fast concentric, pause at the top and bottom);

Stretch



Friday: Plyo 2

Same as Plyo 1, except you measure your 2-leg bounds instead of doing them for 20 meters - you do 6 2-leg bounds for length (per set) and put a cone on the ground, and measure the distance. Note that distance and the next time you do Plyo 2 the next week measure the distance again and put that cone back there at your measured PR. Try to beat that PR as you advance through this program.

So you will do:

Dynamic warm-up

50m accelerations x 3;

(6 2-leg bounds for length + 20m 2-leg bounds for quickness) x 3;

Donkey ankle bounces: 3x15

Stretch



That's all.

If you do this, which is a much more hip dominant workout than what you've done over the years, you should see some improvements. You just gotta keep at it and believing in it. It also has a low enough volume (vs what you've been doing lately) to allow you to actually adapt to the stimulus instead of getting injured. In terms of stretching, stretch the quads and hip flexors daily, preferably a few times per day if you can. This will allow you, over time, to engage the hips better.

But if I see you say in 3 days that you're doing something else (assuming you agree to do what I layed out here in the first place) - then all my time spent to write this has been in vain.

Finally, every 4th week cut the strength work to 1 set instead of 3 for the squat and the deadlift, and for the plyo days go and try to dunk. I don't care what. Tennis balls, whatever. See if you made progress in your jumps.

As time goes by doing this program, you're going to get more specific and try to dunk more often (hopefully with a more hip-driven jump) while decreasing the amount of plyometric work (bounds).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:22:58 am by Raptor »

scoobychau

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2014, 06:33:46 am »
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Raptor: thanks you for this..
i was too busy to check back these few days.. and suddenly saw your reply.. 30 min after office hour end, took a quick glance  and ultra agree about Quad Doman.  Will have to look at workout in details tomor morning.

thanks for your time and effort trying to help! Much appreciated.
BIY - believe in yourself
Born 1980
190 lbs
Reach 7'5" (89")
2 legs leap 28"@06, 33"@11, 34.5"@2012, 37"@2013
Ankle Surgery - Dec 14, 07
Dunk Goal - Nov 11, 2012 (Daughter's 1 yrs old Bdays)

~SACRIFICE~
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HAD...
YOU MUST BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING
YOU'VE NEVER DONE! (by Thomas Jefferson)

Raptor

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2014, 06:39:15 am »
+2
Cool man. If you actually STICK at least to what I wrote here and, to quote the classics, "believe in yourself", then good things will happen. Just don't do it for one week only to change it once again. Do this and GET BETTER at it.

LBSS

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2014, 09:56:22 am »
+1
Just don't do it for one week only to change it once again.

i cannot upvote this enough.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

scoobychau

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2014, 06:51:41 am »
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Yo raptor.. Quite sad the fourm went down and some messagse along with my LONG list of training update is gone in the journal session.

Anyway Just  did  my FIRST raptor suggested Routine yesterday for the first time.
I got to say, I had not done such short easy session for a long time ( consider the jump manual routine is LONG and heavy)

Try to Low bar squat for the first time... and woo.. my wrist hurt.  And the bar only moved lower/back 1 inches only.  It just happen my powerlifting old coach is at the gym also, and he gave me some tips on how to Low bar Squat.  He told me to Lean fwd more.. so the wrist will have less pressure...  I did find that the weight felt lighter when I squat in this new position.  Not sure if I did activate more Glute though.
Started light and did like 5 or 6 set (as i am trying to find working weight with this new form... testing around)


as for the Hip Thrust,  I did it with the Smith machine... as all the bench is fully occupied.  I started with just the bar... adding 20lbs.. and leading to using 45lbs Plus  to avoid Thrusting the bar up the track in the air.
Did like 5 or 6 sets with some testing bench position fooling around thrusting the bar up the sky... :trolldance:

Not many people do this exercise.. and even lesser people do it on the Smith machine... so I am getting some attention. as u see in the pic i post... I was on testing phs if u notice the 2x 10lb plate.



Although I am not Dead tire after this session, I did sweat quite a bit, and I did felt my muscle working.



Question to Raptor:
- I am not sure if u answered my previous post.  What is 50m accelerations , is it like slow jog speeding up toward running fast but not max speed?  sound like some warm up drill.

- I think U answered me in a deleted post before, about wanting to add upper body routine. 
Following your routine, I need to go to the gym twice a week, this mean that IF i will be using weight for uppbody, it will be on the same day as the strength day as u suggested.  (any contradiction?  I would be doing upperbody strength AFTER leg workout if that happen)

- I also asked about Core and Plank,  In my previous program, it asked me to do normal and side plank like mad.. 4 set of 1 min each side... which is hell for me.. and i skipped it often.  No doubt core could possibly be my weakest link.  Should I incorporated it into my my Raptor Glute Routine also?

I will repost my stat and also this first time Hip thrusting experience in my journal tomor..
Not sure if I have time to do Plyo 1 tonight.. as i am still in the office at 7pm....
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 02:24:02 am by scoobychau »
BIY - believe in yourself
Born 1980
190 lbs
Reach 7'5" (89")
2 legs leap 28"@06, 33"@11, 34.5"@2012, 37"@2013
Ankle Surgery - Dec 14, 07
Dunk Goal - Nov 11, 2012 (Daughter's 1 yrs old Bdays)

~SACRIFICE~
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HAD...
YOU MUST BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING
YOU'VE NEVER DONE! (by Thomas Jefferson)

seifullaah73

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 07:57:42 am »
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Yo raptor.. Quite sad the fourm went down and some messagse along with my LONG list of training update is gone in the journal session.

Question to Raptor:
- I am not sure if u answered my previous post.  What is 50m accelerations , is it like slow jog speeding up toward running fast but not max speed?  sound like some warm up drill.

If I remember correctly 50m accelerated run as described by raptor was running 50m starting slow and gradually getting faster until about 40-45m you should be at top speed.

Quote
- I think U answered me in a deleted post before, about wanting to add upper body routine. 
Following your routine, I need to go to the gym twice a week, this mean that IF i will be using weight for uppbody, it will be on the same day as the strength day as u suggested.  (any contradiction?  I would be doing upperbody strength AFTER leg workout if that happen)

- I also asked about Core and Plank,  In my previous program, it asked me to do normal and side plank like mad.. 4 set of 1 min each side... which is hell for me.. and i skipped it often.  No doubt core could possibly be my weakest link.  Should I incorporated it into my my Raptor Glute Routine also?

I will repost my stat and also this first time Hip thrusting experience in my journal tomor..
Not sure if I have time to do Plyo 1 tonight.. as i am still in the office at 7pm....

I think he also said you can do weighed planks but recommends you leave core out for now.

Also just my 2c but the bar positions on those 2 images look the same I think they both are low bar.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
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�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

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Raptor

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 08:09:25 am »
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Hey nice job.

Yeah, in the low bar squat you're going to have some issues with the wrists and elbows. I had severe elbow and wrist pain my first two weeks doing low bar, but they diminished over time.

One thing you can do is go with a wide stance initially, and then gradually narrow it on the bar. With a wider grip, the pressure is less, but you tend to lose your back tension more.

So I start with a wide grip and then narrow it as I get more warmed up.

For the hip thrust, try doing it with a free bar when you can, obviously. The focus is on posterior pelvic tilt and hip hyperextension at the end. In that picture you're just in hip extension (straight line at the hips). You want to exaggerate that even more, and get into hyperextension, while initiating the hyperextension with the glutes, NOT THE BACK. Just a warning. Try pretending that you want to squeeze a coin or a piece of paper in between your buttcheecks, if that image helps :D

Quote
- I am not sure if u answered my previous post.  What is 50m accelerations , is it like slow jog speeding up toward running fast but not max speed?  sound like some warm up drill.

50m accelerations = you constantly accelerate and reach "top speed" at around 40 meters, and maintain it for 10 more meters. It won't be your MAX speed, but it should be fast enough. More towards your max speed than towards your jogging speed.

And yes, it's a matter of warming up and also getting some dynamic hamstring work.

Quote
- I think U answered me in a deleted post before, about wanting to add upper body routine.
Following your routine, I need to go to the gym twice a week, this mean that IF i will be using weight for uppbody, it will be on the same day as the strength day as u suggested.  (any contradiction?  I would be doing upperbody strength AFTER leg workout if that happen)

I would do upperbody work in the plyo days. But keep it very simple: push + pull, +1 assistance.

Say one day it will be bench press 3x5 + chinups 3xMax reps, with 2 sets of cable pulls 2x15
The other day it will be push press 3x5 + pullups 3x5 (do them with a dumbbell kept with your legs, just under your balls), with 2 sets of dips to failure

That's it.

Quote
- I also asked about Core and Plank,  In my previous program, it asked me to do normal and side plank like mad.. 4 set of 1 min each side... which is hell for me.. and i skipped it often.  No doubt core could possibly be my weakest link.  Should I incorporated it into my my Raptor Glute Routine also?

Your core will get strong doing squats and deadlifts and so on. The problem with doing hip and back flexing activities is that the hip flexors get recruited, and we want, at this point, to stretch them and enlongate and "de-activate" them. It doesn't mean they need to be weak, but at the point you're at right now you want to "forget about them" for a while.

So if anything, do a weighed front plank in a posterior pelvic tilt position. Go for 30-45s with a plate on your back. If you can't hold it for 30s, then the plate is too heavy.

If you go over 45s, then use a heavier plate the next time. Do 2x45s. Do them in the upperbody days, since there's not too much volume there anyway.

By the way - if you take an additional rest day here and there (say you don't have time to do the plyos today) - continue the program as it is. So your next workout will still be the plyo workout, don't skip it.

scoobychau

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Re: Seeking suggestion to improve my running approch pls.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2014, 11:12:03 pm »
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Thanks for your answer Raptor, will look into and plan about those upper/plank thing on plyo day!

Some recap doing Raptor working on my Glute routine:

At 11:30 pm
i went to the park with rubber matt to do my plyo 1 session.

Doing the 50m acceleration felt great on my Adidas boost on the rubber mat,  Bouncy to the max. it really feel good, No max out speed as suggested.
(make me wonder y on earth i do those 1.5 hr plyo on concrete floor, Well I know why, caz the park is packed with kids usually.. it is 11:30pm now.. thats y I can use the park)

had not done 2 legged bound for near a year. and I sort of lost my touches.  I walked 20 big steps  to measure 20 M approximately.
For Distance, I bounded about 7 times, but the Landing is always choppy with a mini hop before i can take the next bound.  I felt my Knee is sore right after each set... (i never had this problem before... i am getting farking old may be...) 
For Speed, I bounded about 8 to 9 times for the same distance, and landing is much smoother as I did not go for extreme length..

Donkey Bounce is not new to me also, did it in BoinVert before... Not sure if i am doing it correctly.. as my phone is out of battery so i can not really video cap for review.

Finished everything in about 30 min. At 31C degree, I sweat like a mad... I am swill sweating 15 min after I finish shower...

Recap:
For some reason, I am still feeling U I am using my QUAD to bound, especially when i felt my knee is sore... i am not sure if I activate the glute enough during my bound.
Donkey bounce is loud with clapping floor ankle strike, and i am doing it leaning on a bench on concrete floor... i hope it is ok.

(same thing will be posted on my journal session)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 12:14:36 am by scoobychau »
BIY - believe in yourself
Born 1980
190 lbs
Reach 7'5" (89")
2 legs leap 28"@06, 33"@11, 34.5"@2012, 37"@2013
Ankle Surgery - Dec 14, 07
Dunk Goal - Nov 11, 2012 (Daughter's 1 yrs old Bdays)

~SACRIFICE~
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HAD...
YOU MUST BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING
YOU'VE NEVER DONE! (by Thomas Jefferson)