Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 261786 times)

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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 06:12:08 am »
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How often are you squatting?
3x a week. I try to sneak in a really light workout on one my rest days to make it 4x - but not all the time.

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If your squat is stagnating, it can be that you are over-trained/not fully recovered.  Make sure your squatting days, the day before you get enough sleep/eat well/ and rest or just light stuff for your lower body.  Nothing CNS intensive the day before, unless you are well adapted.  For me personally, I COMPLETELY rest before my lower body day, cuz without a fresh CNS, I can't squat for shit.
 

I'm definitely fatigued most of the time. I realise it's because I do a lot of training - lifting, running, jumping, playing basketball and this while trying to diet - it's going to cost me recovery ability. I get that - I'm not denying that, just trying to understand how I can make it work the best considering i'm not going to change training since it's unavoidable. But your post made me realise I am not really prioritising squat. Usually i bench first before squatting. On match day, I usually play ball first then lift.

I was thinking today since i'm refreshed having had 2 rest days where I didn't do any training, that I could maybe squat heavy again today - but warming up, I felt rusty and didn't think i'd be able to hit the same weights as my last workout. So i went with the scheduled 3x6 weights which felt okay.

The only thing thing I can think of is, maybe not go so hard on fridays, so I can come back on sunday to make my 3x3 lifts? But the cost of that is I can't work on my conditioning as hard but something has to give.. :(

I made teh change to squat first today though, fresh. Last week I trained after the match, and after bench pressing. Today squatted first, then bench, and then play ball.

Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

D4

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 11:23:03 am »
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Squatting 3x a week is not better than 2x a week or 1x a week, if your 3x a week is not progressing into any strength gains.  I may be wrong, but I believe when your cutting calories, it is better to reduce frequency of workouts.  Try 2x a week squatting.  When I cut calories, I lifted heavy one day and light the other day and that was it, but I was at least fresh for each heavy session, allowing me to progress my squat most of the time.

You're on a diet...  It will make it that much harder to recover.  3x a week is already a lot for non dieters unless they are well adapted, but you obviously are not.
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

entropy

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Week 2 (Session #1)
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 11:59:10 am »
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Training
SQ 3x6 92.5kg
BP 3x6 73.5 kg

Bball match (fitness improving, still managing to fuck up the finish on my drives .. sigh.., positives, pulled down a bunch of boards tho)

DL 1x5 117.5 kg

Skipped chinups after warming up with them felt grindy.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

D4

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 01:41:33 pm »
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I'm really bad at taking good advice so help me out here - how would you change my program

weds: squat, bp 3x6, dl 1x5, bball match

friday: squat, bp 3x5, dl 1x5, bball, jumping, sprints

sunday: squat, bp 3x3, dl 1x5, bball/sprints

oh yeh and i do chins (and weighted ones) but lets not worry about them for now

if having two meaningful squat sessions, would I keep the 5s and 6s and skip the 3s? Or keep 3s and drop one of 6s or 5s? Must confess I love 6s, so i'm reluctant to drop them :P Dont care much for 5s except they're heavier than 6s and I find them challenging. 3s im neither here nor there.. dunno.

Just to another piece of info - i have no problem hitting the 6s and 5s, usually only struggle with the 3s on sunday cos i'm not well recovered from fridays death by hours of pickup ball..

You have a basketball match AFTER heavy lifting?  You can still play like that?

Anyways, my advice is, take out your squats and dead lifts on Friday.  Just do upper body and basketball/sprint/jump, but don't go too crazy with the volume on these.  You should be fresher on each squat session and therefore, more likely to progress your strength. 

Sunday you do sprints BEFORE squats right?  If not, do so.
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 01:56:18 pm »
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You have a basketball match AFTER heavy lifting?  You can still play like that?

Today I did for the first time. But it's not really heavy -3x6 weight is about 20kg lighter than my 3x3 workout. The last few weeks I had been playing first, then lifting, but that means I finish workout out pretty late. What I could do is try to do 2-a-days again, had some success with them early 2012. That way I could do some of my lifting in the AM, then play ball, and lift post workout. Might be better? I can definitely try that out.

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Anyways, my advice is, take out your squats and dead lifts on Friday.  Just do upper body and basketball/sprint/jump, but don't go too crazy with the volume on these.  You should be fresher on each squat session and therefore, more likely to progress your strength. 

fridays workouts aren't hard, neither, if I played less ball, i might be better recovered? It's a balancing act heh. The other thing is, my squat is really sensitive to frequency and it detrains very quickly. Taking 3 days between squats might be bad. I'll think about it.

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Sunday you do sprints BEFORE squats right?  If not, do so.
Usually get the lifting out of the way, then head to the park. Is this bad? I figure I can go all out on the sprints that way, and not have to save myself to lift later, cos I  don't know how to limit myself.

Thanks for the ideas, i'm gonna take them on board and improve my programming.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

D4

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2012, 02:32:59 pm »
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Of course I can't say for sure, cause I don't know you and I don't train with you, but it seems like you're not going that heavy on your squats.  6 reps being 20kg lighter than 3 reps is a lot, unless you're purposely trying to go lighter.  Lifting heavy is important when dieting.

If your really frequency sensitive with squats, at least make Friday a light day (~60% 1RM).  If you believe you really can recover with your current routine, and it's the basketball that's messing you up, reduce that. 

You gotta reduce one or the other, or you'll keep on being chronically fatigued and not progress your squats.  You said your squat stagnated for 3 weeks.  At your strength levels, this should not happen, ESPECIALLY considering your doing pretty high frequency.  So obviously something is wrong, and most likely overtraining/ lack of recovery so up to you.  Take something out, if you want to keep progressing.  Gotta sacrifice some things for the bigger goal.  I know the feeling, I hate giving up basketball time, but if "CHASING ATHLETICISM" is your primary goal at this point, gotta make the necessary changes.

Sprinting/ Max effort jumping/ and other plyo's should be done with the same mentality as how us athletes treat heavy lifting days.  Quality over quantity, and train at your peak.

Sprint BEFORE you lift, so you will train your body for sprinting at it's best.  The reason it doesn't work the other way around is, lifting will hinder sprint performance for the day, but sprints (OBVIOUSLY GO FOR QUALITY AND NOT MUCH VOLUME) will not hinder your lifting, in fact it is a good warm up for max lifting.  How much plyometric volume one can handle before risking lifting performance varies by individual but play it safe and go for low volume first and keep adding until you know your limits.  More volume on sprints/plyo's/jumps is not worth it to risk lifting performance.
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 07:42:41 am »
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Of course I can't say for sure, cause I don't know you and I don't train with you, but it seems like you're not going that heavy on your squats.  6 reps being 20kg lighter than 3 reps is a lot, unless you're purposely trying to go lighter.  Lifting heavy is important when dieting.

I get that. Yes the 6s aren't heavy, but from experience they're important in the big picture. I find I need them to keep my form honest. If I lift heavy triples only then my form goes bad because the weight is heavy, and I'm struggling to just get thru the reps and sets, it sets up a situation where i'm doing ugly squats  ALL the time. The 6s are an antidote to that, they remind my body what a pretty squat looks like, Good form is important for self evident reasons and also I think for someone with my proportions (not build to be great at lifting) I need that time under tension to get sufficient stimulus. I actually don't know the full explanation of by heart but I read it on a t-nation article (lol) and it made sense. The idea is lanky guys like me need more work with higher reps with lighter weight to get the best out of lifting. I don't know if it's true or not but when I reach my goal of 1.5BW for worksets, I want to be doing it with good form, not shitty form, because that's worthless from the perspective of attaining the next goal of 1.75BW and longterm 2BW. So if it means working with weights 10-20kg less in 2 workouts of 3, that's okay for me.

The other thing is, i've tried the go heavy every time thing in the past while cutting. I dont know if it works cos I always end up taking reps off and by the end i'm doing heavy awful looking doubles and triples with a weight I was using for 5s previously before the diet. And form gradually gets worse and worse. As in scary and painful to watch. The other thing is, someone with a long road of dieting ahead, there is no way I can lift heavy every workout for the next 8-16wks - even if twice a wk, i'd burn out very quickly. The recommendation to just lift heavy bro when cutting doesn't make too much sense to me. People can't lift heavy all the time when they're bulking - so why would you try that on a cut? It makes no sense and yes I've tried it earnestly in the past and it didn't work and i think rep work is too important to give up just because you're cutting.

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If your really frequency sensitive with squats, at least make Friday a light day (~60% 1RM).  If you believe you really can recover with your current routine, and it's the basketball that's messing you up, reduce that.  

Yeah I need to cut down on ball slightly.. (easier said than done, it's like opening a bag of crisps/chips and planning only on having a a handful..lol). But i'll have to be strict about it.

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You gotta reduce one or the other, or you'll keep on being chronically fatigued and not progress your squats.  You said your squat stagnated for 3 weeks.  At your strength levels, this should not happen, ESPECIALLY considering your doing pretty high frequency.  So obviously something is wrong, and most likely overtraining/ lack of recovery so up to you.  Take something out, if you want to keep progressing.  Gotta sacrifice some things for the bigger goal.  I know the feeling, I hate giving up basketball time, but if "CHASING ATHLETICISM" is your primary goal at this point, gotta make the necessary changes.

Athleticism means having a decent base of fitness/conditioning right? So if i'm half as well conditioned as the average athlete, i can improve that by just showing up each time.  Pretty sure each time i train, i improve, just because i'm so out of shape. I mean taking my 100m sprint from 17s down to 14s wont take a huge amount of high quality work. I just need to run a few times a week and i'll automatically improve, at least for a while. The other thing is, i'm doing extra work atm cos i have to lug around a surplus 10% of bodyfat which I wont have when lean. So there is that too. I'm more fatigued and unfit now, but i wont be later even just maintaining my current fitness and training.  

Regarding squats - im guessing I weigh around 83kg right now. My goal is 1.5BW squats for 3x3. I'm at 110kg atm, and I need to nudge that up to 120, while cutting down to 80kg to reach my goal. This month I can probably manage to get up to 115. Maybe. dunno. If I get myself unstuck first lol. But say If i make progress this week and get 112.5 then 115 should be doable by month end. Then as long as I can nudge it up slowly from 115 to 120, i should be okay. I'm not trying to set the world on fire with my squat, not while cutting and playing ball etc. 1.5BW worksets is my goal, and i'm not too far from it, i think i'm 1.36BW atm. and I did 120kg for 10 sets of 3 earlier this year so it's not a PR for me either. So 120 is a fairly realistic/modest goal imho.  

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Sprinting/ Max effort jumping/ and other plyo's should be done with the same mentality as how us athletes treat heavy lifting days.  Quality over quantity, and train at your peak.

I understand. When i'm down to 10% bf and i'm squatting 130 for triples etc, and my 100m time is < 14 I'll have to change my approach since just showing up wont be enough. I look forward to that lol. That's when I get to approach the limits of my natural ability - will be hard work and training in a different way than i'm used to.

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Sprint BEFORE you lift, so you will train your body for sprinting at it's best.  The reason it doesn't work the other way around is, lifting will hinder sprint performance for the day, but sprints (OBVIOUSLY GO FOR QUALITY AND NOT MUCH VOLUME) will not hinder your lifting, in fact it is a good warm up for max lifting.  How much plyometric volume one can handle before risking lifting performance varies by individual but play it safe and go for low volume first and keep adding until you know your limits.  More volume on sprints/plyo's/jumps is not worth it to risk lifting performance.

Ok. i'll try this out tomorrow. Will let you know hhow it goes. Also can you tell me what sort of distance is ideal for me? I've seen some guys here logging 15 yard sprints, mine are around 40m (i think, could be 60m i haven't measured just using the lines drawn on the field). Does it matter?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 07:45:37 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

D4

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 12:14:11 pm »
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Well from a basketball player's perspective, how long is a full court?  30 yd?  No point in training farther than that.  If you have other goals and sports, (football, track) than of course you should train other distances.  Sprint work should have an emphasis on accelerating as fast as possible within ~20-30yds for basketball players.  This emphasis also helps with your vertical goals.

When I said you should lift heavy on a cut, of course I was assuming lower frequency than 3x a week.  I lifted only once a week during my cut, which allowed me to go heavy each time and maintain my strength.  But you said you don't wanna go under 3x a week so that's that.  Heavy doesn't always mean 3 rep maxes on each set.  It can mean work up to a 5 rep max and then have 3 more sets at a lower weight for a little extra volume.  It can mean 3 sets of 4 at a 6 rep max...  Heavy is ~80%+ 1RM I believe.

Yes, conditioning/fitness is athleticism as well.  But when you watch the NBA, do you look at Rip Hamilton (one of the most conditioned players) and say "DAMN HE ATHLETIC"?  Or do you look at Lebron James get his head on the rim and say "DAMN HE ATHLETIC".  Most of the time it's the latter because that's what most people associate athleticism with in regards to basketball players.  So, that's what I thought you meant.   I still think you should put your vert goals ahead of your conditioning goals because getting well conditioned for basketball games, you can do any time in a short amount of time.  You just basically show up to ball frequently and play hard and up goes your conditioning.   Up to you though.  If you feel you're too fat right now, then yeah get that weight off first.

Good luck.
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 05:16:52 am »
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For some bizarre reason I had come to believe a basketball court was 40m long, and now looking at it online it's around ~28m. Yeah 50-60m was too much. I shouldn't be training sprints for such longer lengths. Will change that today. If I can find a tape measure roll, i'm gonna measure out 30m too. just to be exact. Thanks!!

If > 80% is sufficiently heavy then I think i'm still in that range with 3x6 92.5, which is good to know :) Today i'm taking your advice and will sprint first then lift, then go play ball.

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Yes, conditioning/fitness is athleticism as well.  But when you watch the NBA, do you look at Rip Hamilton (one of the most conditioned players) and say "DAMN HE ATHLETIC"?  Or do you look at Lebron James get his head on the rim and say "DAMN HE ATHLETIC".  Most of the time it's the latter because that's what most people associate athleticism with in regards to basketball players.  So, that's what I thought you meant.   I still think you should put your vert goals ahead of your conditioning goals because getting well conditioned for basketball games, you can do any time in a short amount of time.  You just basically show up to ball frequently and play hard and up goes your conditioning.   Up to you though.  If you feel you're too fat right now, then yeah get that weight off first.

I agree with you completely. I guess conditioning is just taken for granted and expected. But when you don't have it, it eats into your ability to express the other athletic qualities during games. If you're tired and fatigued and out of breathe you can't move as fast nor jump as high etc. Suppose you are right and I can improve my conditioning just by playing more ball and at a hard pace - then outside the court I should be working on my power, strength, jump and sprint more than conditioning. Makes sense. I'll make the necessary changes, thank you.

Btw I went and tested my SVJ yesterday and on my legit 10" rim - I have 3.5" above the rim with a 98" standing reach. So that means my SVJ is 25.5? I find that surprising - i would have thought i was still around 22". But hopefully once my ankle is all healed up, i'll be able to train jumping harder and take that up to 28". I can't do a decent RVJ attempt because of my ankle. Speaking of which..

Where has athletic tape been all my life?? I read a thread recently about NBA players taping their ankles and I tried it out myself since i'd been having problems with my left ankle. It makes such a huge difference. The stuff is magic!!
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 06:12:23 am »
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Training
30m x 5 sprints   while fresh, best time - 5:84

Used ankle tape and new running shoes, was mostly painless. I really like these shorter sprints, can go all out and be powering thru the finish rather than slowing down cos of fatigue. Felt great. Will continue to do them from now on. I ran a few other warmup sprints but didn't keep a track of them.

Time to put on my WL shoes and do some sqwats.

3x5 102.5 kg Backsquats These were stupidly hard, I had to psyche myself up lol, for 100kg? I wont be sprinting before lifting again. i can sprint after squatting without a problem, but lifting after sprinting is way harder.

Getting tired of benching all the time. I don't want to start doing some other exercise half heartedly but dunno.

Going to play pickup ball now,  i'll come back and bench/chin before bed.

1 hour pickup ball - amazing difference playing with a solid ankle. Felt a lot more confident.

I might still bench tonight, but i don't really want to. lol. will see. I need loads more upper body strength. I find myself unable to shoot properly cos my upper body feels weak. Maybe i should add some volume on bench press and drop the intensity some. That might build more strength endurance and a good compromise in intensity cos i'm not setting PRs any time soon anyway.

Forgot to mention, i took an attempt at dunking. But i'm not 100% sure I actually did dunk lol. I know i grabbed the rim both hands at the end, and the ball went in too, but i'm not sure if it was a dunk or just some bullshit. Will count it as a miss anyway. Another thing, I tested SVJ thsi time at a proper court and I hit the rim with my palm middle. So my SVJ is prob slightly higher than 25.5"? maybe as much 27". That is bullshit too. If a fat, unfit, injured unathletic fuck like me is getting 27" without really training for VJ then something is wrong somewhere..

I love 30m sprints.. can't wait to do them next time.. what's a good time to aim for, less than 4s?

BP 1x5 78.5kg, 1x5 71 kg - Last rep was ugly on the first set. 2nd set was 10% less than the first. Felt guilty eating a big dinner and skipping bench so went back and did it lol. I just hope I can make some progress on my lifts on the next workout.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 02:10:44 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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end of week #2
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2012, 11:21:30 am »
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Training
SQ - 3x3 107.5kg  - would like to have better form on these but dieters cant be choosers.
DL - 1x4 125kg - grip gave out on 5th rep.. should have taken a smaller jump, next time do 120kg and take 2.5kg jumps from now on.
Chinup - 2x5 BW - why do i suddenly suck at these? weird.
5x30m sprints (best time 4:95).  happy about breaking 5s. will chip away at this to break 4s over the next few weeks.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Week 3 - Training session #1
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 09:57:04 am »
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Training
full court basketball match (~1hr)
Sq - 3x6 95kg
Sprints - 10x30m (Best time 4:95 on the last sprint - had to go balls deep to break 5 today, the best i could do before that was 5:08-5:13 - kept hitting 13 regularly in the last 5 attempts. The first 5 were were mid 5s - bit rusty)

Skipped upper body work, strained intercostal over the weekend (think from unracking bench or squats, or both, on friday). Don't want to make it worse. Hopefully it will be healed faster this way. I've had this injury before and it's a bitch. Last time i just had to lay off all training and it took a few weeks before it healed. Otherwise it never went away when i tried to train thru it, only made it worse and took ages to heal that way.

frustrated with my game.. i'm not finding my place in the team.. i feel as though i'm underutilised on offence.. i should be getting the ball much more since i have good offensive skills, i can dribble well for my size, and i can beat most ppl guarding me easily. but i keep getting overlooked. the only way around this, and i feel selfish about it is if i pull down a board on defence and run it all the way.. which is the only way i'm getting to the hoop it seems sometimes. but i'd rather get a good assist than score anyway, i'm a pass first kind of guy. ah well. i'm actually really happy with my team, we got blown away today as usual, but it was good to see everyone contributing, the ball was passed around much more, and we played decent defence, all things considering..

Forgot to mention, I had another steal at half court where i didn't think to go for a dunk on teh fast break. Dunno why i didn't even try. I regretted instantly  cos i slowed  down enough to let someone steal the ball in the end.. wtf was i thinking.. lol.. next time finish fast break with dunk, no matter what!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:10:30 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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rest day (dear diary)
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 10:36:46 am »
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Nutritional Checklist (N)
+ avoid processed foods
+ fruit and vegetables with every meal
+ Appropriate carbs. I tend to cut out carbs excessively - need em for training: performance and recovery (i could do with more starches around workouts, I don't normally have them, admittedly)
+ eat meat for dinner daily

make sure I check that off every day. If I hit all 4, then it's N=4/4 - etc.

Went to shoot some hoops, my left ankle was complaining, so I forced myself to lead with my non dexterous  right foot. Since then my right foot has been cramping/fatigued - interesting, suppose that means it's weaker? Would be good to consciously train and strengthen it - so when fully healthy, both sides will be strong. I did some jumps off my right foot too.

N: 3.5/4  (190g protein. Additional Notes: Started taking fish oil capsules today - 4x1000mg after dinner - lets see if it makes any difference.)

« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 11:47:54 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Training w3,d2
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2012, 08:49:37 am »
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Training
SQ 3x5 105kg - I stopped pausing my squats today, and they got magically super easy..
BP 3x8 65kg
DL 1x3 120kg
3x30m sprints, best time 5:15 - strained L hamstring on one sprint, and then decided to wrap it up before I did any more damage. My R foot has been sore/tender since yesterday too. Might have done something to it too. I'm basically a magnet for injuries lol. Keep picking up stuff all the time :/

Have decide to switch to higher reps on BP. I figure if I can't get strong with low reps, for whatever reason, then I can at least have perfect form and good repping ability. I am aiming for close grip, 10+ reps x 80kg with perfect form- which if I get it, should mean I have moved my max up and over 100kg, which i've not been able to do forever.

DL form fucking sucks. I think it will improve when ive got full ROM back on my L ankle, cos i've got to be closer to the bar than i'd like to be and i've currently got very little room for ankle flexion before it bothers my ankle.

Will do a whole lot of chinups before bed cos otherwise all these carbs I ate today were a waste. I really wanted to get some good sprints in today!! Ah well. Next time.

Nutrition N: 2.5/4 (-no veg meal 1, +processed food - bag of chips)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 12:21:01 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2012, 09:39:37 am »
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post vid of dl form. it'd be odd for ankle mobility to be the limiting factor there.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

handstand + backflip + flag