Author Topic: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )  (Read 8965 times)

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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 06:29:13 am »
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Added an index with hyperlinks to each question in the 1st post. This should make the topic more useful for the Q&A section that it belongs to.
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seifullaah73

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 07:39:25 am »
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20 October 2012

So i did RDLs again , second time using Lance's cues. Felt right this time but watching the video i am confused:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKH9_lYMx0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKH9_lYMx0</a>

Is that a correct RDL?
Is it a straight leg DL?
Is it a snatch grip DL?
Is it some kind of wrong mixture of all of the above???

nice one, but i'm confused on one, thing, lance said to bend your knees at the start position, but your knees are straight, at the start.

thanks
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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 04:30:09 am »
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^True , knees lock out. That was a consequence of trying to start and finish with the bar in the hip crease. I have too long arms ( 5'11 3/4'' barefoot , 6'5'' wingspan ) so I find it hard to keep knees bent because then the bar starts too low. I tried pulling shoulders back or bending elbows but i can't maintain that through all the set holding 80kg.
I should experiment with HOW i bend, Lance said that it should help keep the bar in the hip crease instead of make it more difficult. I will watch the suggested pendlay's video.
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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 09:18:06 am »
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I would like some feedback/thoughts/objections about my current diet plan:

- I am following a mixed approach, cutting on non-lifting days and bulking on lifting days.
- The ammount of surplus/shortfall for bulk/cut respectively is 500kcals.
- Goal of curent plan is to achieve a recomposition. Starting status was ~194lbs / 17% bodyfat. I want to maintain ( or possibly increase ) my current LBM ( hence the bulk on lifting days ), but also lose some fat ( hence the cut on other days ). I lift 3*week so it's 3 bulking-4 cutting days weekly.

Is my approach valid? Would it be better if i took an approach of first plain cut and then plain bulk, or it wouldn't really make a difference?
Supposing current approach is correct , is the 500kcals a reasonable quantity for bulking surplus/cutting shortfall or should i increase/decrease any of them?

Thanks.
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LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2012, 09:52:24 am »
+1
IMHO you should do a dedicated cut first, a la entropy, and then bulk. less complicated, less constant guessing about whether you're replacing fat with LBM while the scale isn't moving.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2012, 10:11:25 am »
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^Thanks , that covers this part of my query:

Is my approach valid? Would it be better if i took an approach of first plain cut and then plain bulk, or it wouldn't really make a difference?

But if i wanted to take the other way and attempt a recomposition staying at the same weight , would the way i set it up be correct?
Or there does not really exist such a thing as a steady-weight recomposition?
I am insisting because I pulled that mixed bulk/cut plan right out of my ass so i need to know if it has any proven/studied base or i should dump it and go typical bulk/cut cycles.
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LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 10:31:36 am »
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http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

Quote from: lyle
Which is why a lot of the approaches advocated for ‘gaining muscle while losing fat’ aren’t very effective.  In fact, I’d tend to argue that most people’s attempts to achieve the above results in them simply spinning their wheels, making no progress towards either goal.  Because invariably they set up a situation where neither training nor diet is optimized for either fat loss or muscle gain.  Calories are too high for fat loss and too low to support muscle gains and outside of that one overfat beginner situation, the physiology simply isn’t going to readily allow what they want to happen to happen.

...

But none of those approaches generate a muscle gain to equal the fat loss, at best they generate a small muscle gain in the face of a much larger fat loss (e.g. someone might lose a lot of fat while gaining a pound or two of muscle or what have you).  But for the non-beginner/non-returning from a layoff trainee that’s about the best you’re going to get.  Potential rates of muscle gain are never going to approach the potential rate of fat loss once folks are past the beginner stage.  Even in the beginner stage, it’s generally always easier to lose fat much faster than you can gain muscle.

So the idea of replacing every pound of lost fat with exactly one pound of muscle will be essentially impossible for the intermediate/advanced trainee.  There’s simply not enough fat/the fat cells dont want to ‘give up their calories’ and the ability to stimulate rapid muscle gains isn’t there any more.

Alan Aragon in the comments:

Quote from: Alan Aragon
The level of aggressiveness of the method of surplus or deficit depends on the individual’s goals & current status. Some folks don’t necessarily care about not getting significanty fatter while bulking, but a good portion of my clientele wants to (or in some cases, like actors & models) need to look good all year round. Thus the alternation of looking somewhat chubby while bulking before leaning down really isn’t an option. On the other hand, I think that people in general think I’m opposed to putting on any fat at all while bulking, or they think I’m not into the idea of separate cutting or bulking cycles, which isn’t true. With some clients, I choose a very specific & aggressive focus. For example, I’m building a plan for a natural BBing champ that’s specifically geared toward off-season gains. After that phase is done, it’s cutting time. With others, it’s more of the culking/recomp scenario involving less agressive surpluses or deficits. Not everyone gets the same treatment, because everyone is at a different place in their development, and people’s goals/objectives differ. One thing I want to get clear is that I’m not opposed to traditional cutting & bulking alternation, it’s actually best for some, and I do go that route with certain client cases that it’s well suited for. And I don’t disagree that the culking effect happens to a more pronounced degree in beginners with more fat to lose & more muscle to gain.

someone else in the comments apparently did a weekly cycle, with 500kcal surpluses every day for a week, and 500kcal deficits every day for a week. seemed to like it.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

entropy

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 11:58:30 am »
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Recomps work better when you're lean. Which is a motherfucker because 95% of the time people who want to try a recomp aren't lean - catch 22. All the recomp diets i've read about, whether UD2, leanga1ns, the original ultimate diet by Dan Duchaine all set out a desirable bodyfat of 10-12%. At that bodyfat you have excellent insulin sensitivity and the best p ratio. Those are the ingredients for a good recomp.

Like Aragon warns above, ppl who recomp at higher bodyfats tend to spin their wheels and achieve nothing with their bodycomp goals. In fact the only time the recomp for a higher bodyfat seems to work is if you're starting off as a complete newbie who hasn't trained before and that's when you see muscle gain with fat loss at the same time. And that doesn't last long. Ppl who have been training a while aren't gonna see the same results.

The other thing is vag even if you go on a cut (say 10-20% deficit), which is what i'd recommend, if you do an exercise which is new to your body, you'll gain some muscle even while cutting. I saw that when i was cutting when I added ab crunches, within 2 weeks i had much bigger abs while in the middle of a long cut. I've read about the same thing for other ppl too when they've done say a new exercise like calve raises while cutting hard - gaining some new mass while on a deficit. That sort of recomp is possible, you just have to try and find exercises which hit your newbie body parts because they'll grow regardless. Now if you're trying to grow your legs after having squatted for a long time, that probably wont happen mid-cut, but if you add a new assistance exercise which targets a part of your legs which you're still a newbie at, maybe it will just give you some modest gains.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 12:05:53 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 01:52:15 pm »
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^ You are both very convincing and i know that you have studied your shit very well about that subject.
I will switch my plan to a plain cut and see what happens, I will use a 20% deficit.
Thanks a lot both!  :highfive:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:53:57 pm by vag »
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LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 05:31:58 pm »
+2

 Make sure you pick a training plan that is easily progressed, and go into with the attitude that you WILL improve your performance/strength.  If you are squatting 500 and go on a drastic cut, its fairly unrealistic to plan to progress that during the cut.  If you are squatting 300, you can FOR SURE, get stronger, more explosive, etc., as you drop fat.

 I have a post on the 3 set method in my section that works great under these kind of conditions.  Your focus is on improving a 3 set total rather than a single set or poundage.  This is MUCH more doable over the long run than trying to improve a single set goal. For example,

day 1 -  225 x 5, 225 x 4 , 225 x 4 = 13 reps

day 2- 225 x 5, 225 x 5, 225 x 4 = 14 reps, progress.

once you hit 20-30 total in 3 sets, up the poundage and start over.  (20-30 can be whatever you want, maxS focus could easily use 10 total reps, etc.)

 ^ thats only one example of a plan that is easy to progress, a lot of things can work.  MAKE progress happen though, most important factor.  Too many people go into "cuts" already EXPECTING to get weaker.  Thats fail from the get go.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 05:51:35 pm »
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What about volume for his goals? The 20-30 you talked about or were those just "general" guidelines (where "general" is something in the middle, like what 8 rep is (some strength, some hypertrophy)?

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 06:34:42 pm »
+1

 Right, that was a random number for the total.  Up or down, depending on what your focus is, however, a nice thing about using that method is you tend to wave rep ranges naturally without much thought.

 When you first start you might hit ~13 total (max S focused rr).  Over the next 3 workouts, now youre up to 26 (more of a hypertrophy focused range).  Then on your 4th session you up the poundage and go back down to 10 or so reps.  You can continue this way for a LONG period of time pushing progress.

 Its nice when you look at your log and see for example, last session you squatted 300 for 25 total reps in 3 sets.  Today you definitely dont feel up to 26 or more reps, so you put on 305, and the numbers start over, while still progressing POUNDAGE on the bar.  Whatever number you hit that day is now your new marker to improve.  Its kind of like a built in deload/ a-reg system.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 08:07:32 pm »
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What if you're stuck?

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 11:03:42 pm »
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What if you're stuck?

 When youre using a 3 set rep total, with the option to up LOAD, its very hard to get stuck without some type of progression possible.  IF all of the above are exhausted (which will take a LONG time ) then you can change the exercise for a while, or even a day, and come back to what you were doing.  You dont have to beat a single set record, its cumulative of THREE sets, making it very easy to improve.

 What I normally do with guys in a situation like Vag is, have them squat 2-3 x a week.  Once the back squat has reached a high level and is harder to progress, one of those days will become front squat with the same set/rep scheme.  This gives you enough time between sessions to FOR SURE progress both exercises.  At very high strength levels you will use 3 different exercises at most for the same movement pattern (front squat, back squat, pause squat).   
Relax.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical :: various Q&A ( programming , exercise form etc )
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2012, 06:09:58 am »
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:motherofgod:

Awesome stuff Lance!!!!!

:highfive:   +   :lololol:
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