Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 308959 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4590 on: January 05, 2019, 08:53:46 pm »
+1
Bodyweight(AM): 84.3kg (6 Jan)
Diet compliance: 1/1 days
Daily Squat: 50/50 days
Daily Run: 50/50 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
  Ez TM Run - 30 min, 4km 


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 3x142.5, 1x150, 10x122.5(PR)
  Dips 3x8x20kg
  1 arm farmers walks for QL
  BX 10x70(+band, PR)


Evening:
  Hoops workout


Notes:
  • Hot morning, not sure what kind of run i'll do. Maybe an EZ one..
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 06:33:47 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4591 on: January 06, 2019, 09:10:03 pm »
+1
Bodyweight(AM): 83.7kg (7 Jan)
Diet compliance: 2/2 days
Daily Squat: 51/51 days
Daily Run: 51/51 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
  TM Run 5km, 30min


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x150, 3x145, 10x125(PR)
  BX 12x70(+band, PR)

Evening:
  


Notes:
  • 3 days of eating clean and bw looks better.
  • Another hot morning smh. Next time it's a cool one i'll go for a nice long run, promise.. 
  • The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in. I think basketball reintroduction is competing with the same neuromuscular system resources as running and while my CV isn't been challenged .. the former is at the limit. My running goals might not be realistic for in-season unless some drastic adaptions to basketball occur over the next couple of weeks to facilitate cross-training.  If something doesn't work itself out i might need to do my cardio another way (rowing or cycling perhaps) b/c running is just too similar and demanding to basketball and vice versa
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:43:21 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

Coges

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2667
  • Respect: +1881
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4592 on: January 07, 2019, 07:52:58 pm »
0
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4593 on: January 07, 2019, 08:02:49 pm »
+1
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.

Not sure if it gets easier but it gets managable but if your mindset is that 'this should be easy' then you'll be defeated even before you start. I think that's where im struggling with atm, cos if you go into a run thinking this will be the hardest thing then you can deal with almost anything running wise. But if you go into it expecting ease then you're not going to be prepared for it and it will be a slog. It's kind of how you frame it. When im squatting i expect every rep to be hard and it usually is that hard but you get it done. If i expected it to be ez then i'd never get thru it because it's not the right mental frame to complete the exercise
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4594 on: January 07, 2019, 08:26:54 pm »
0
Bodyweight(AM): 84.2kg (8 Jan)
Diet compliance: 4/4 days
Daily Squat: 52/52 days
Daily Run: 52/52 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
 TM Run 5km 28:36 


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x152.5, 3x147.5, 10x127.5(PR)
  BX 13x70kg(+Bands, PR)

Evening:
  


Notes:
  • Bit of a carb up last night.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 02:14:17 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31932
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +7997
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4595 on: January 07, 2019, 09:40:01 pm »
0
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.

Not sure if it gets easier but it gets managable but if your mindset is that 'this should be easy' then you'll be defeated even before you start. I think that's where im struggling with atm, cos if you go into a run thinking this will be the hardest thing then you can deal with almost anything running wise. But if you go into it expecting ease then you're not going to be prepared for it and it will be a slog. It's kind of how you frame it. When im squatting i expect every rep to be hard and it usually is that hard but you get it done. If i expected it to be ez then i'd never get thru it because it's not the right mental frame to complete the exercise

it's different with heart muscle (and capillary density). it responds well to very relaxed, low intensity, longer duration (30+ minutes) running.

45 minutes is my sweet spot for very light runs which still improve my aerobic capacity, without stressing me at all.

if you can walk at an easy pace, then you can run (albeit slowly) at an easy pace. for strong/elite runners, their slow pace looks very fast. that's why people get confused. an elite runner can jog 6:30 min/mi pace for example, at like absolutely no effort.

most running should be easy. the mistake most people make is not realizing how easy, easy, really is.

my preferred pace for most easy runs is 9:30-10:30 min/mi for 30-90 minutes. that's very slow.

if you take your squat mindset to running, then you are a sprinting, not running.. :D

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4596 on: January 07, 2019, 10:40:04 pm »
0
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.

Not sure if it gets easier but it gets managable but if your mindset is that 'this should be easy' then you'll be defeated even before you start. I think that's where im struggling with atm, cos if you go into a run thinking this will be the hardest thing then you can deal with almost anything running wise. But if you go into it expecting ease then you're not going to be prepared for it and it will be a slog. It's kind of how you frame it. When im squatting i expect every rep to be hard and it usually is that hard but you get it done. If i expected it to be ez then i'd never get thru it because it's not the right mental frame to complete the exercise

it's different with heart muscle (and capillary density). it responds well to very relaxed, low intensity, longer duration (30+ minutes) running.

45 minutes is my sweet spot for very light runs which still improve my aerobic capacity, without stressing me at all.

if you can walk at an easy pace, then you can run (albeit slowly) at an easy pace. for strong/elite runners, their slow pace looks very fast. that's why people get confused. an elite runner can jog 6:30 min/mi pace for example, at like absolutely no effort.

most running should be easy. the mistake most people make is not realizing how easy, easy, really is.

my preferred pace for most easy runs is 9:30-10:30 min/mi for 30-90 minutes. that's very slow.

if you take your squat mindset to running, then you are a sprinting, not running.. :D

I think i made some progress understanding wtf is going on with my schizophrenic running lately. This morning treadmill run, I start warming up at 6km/hr which is the lowest of the hotkey speed buttons that are not a walk (it goes 3, 6 then 9). So every 15s i increase the speed by 0.2-0.5km/hr .. usually only 0.2km/hr after teh getting up to around 7km/hr.  I take about 5 minutes to work up to 9.2km/hr which is a 6:30ish pace. And at 5 minutes in im like, yea this sucks, my right calf is complaining and ive got a crazy pump (on R leg mind you) and i just want to stop and quit running for good and say it's not for me. Mo farah's warmup sucks. Im prob better off going from zero to 10km/hr than this. tbh.

Around about 10 minutes if i stick around ive bumped the speed up to 10.2km/hr or so, now suddenly my form changes (im still not srue if form is now better or worse at slower speeds?) but running is easier the faster i go. So it almost seems like if im going anything below a speed my form is inefficient/unsustainable. Above that speed and im fine, i can run better/longer and now im tasking my cardiovascular system instead of my mental system.

It's almost as if i can do a long tempo at 10km/hr but trying to stay below that speed and it's torture. And of course it's a fine line because if i cross say 11km/hr now it's hard work but it feels more productive all the same. It's a struggle for me to maintain 12km/hr which is just a 5 minute pace. It's almost as if when i started doing these longer/easier runs i just got weaker (mentally) and im no longer challenging myself with hard runs but instead im torturing myself with slower runs. I think from here on it makes zero sense to do any more long/slow running. If what you say is true that longer runs build fitness better then i should just do that but not run, bike or row instead. I think that will suit me because because i can't seem to figure out the sweet spot of running slow enough without having form/mindset problems.
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31932
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +7997
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4597 on: January 08, 2019, 12:10:14 am »
+1
The whole idea of 'easy running' seems to be fantasy. no part of running right now is easy, even warming up i just wanted to give it up 5 minutes in.\

Mate I can speak from experience here that it does in fact get easier. Not sure I ever got to the 'easy running' part but once I got past the first few minutes it got a whole lot easier.

Not sure if it gets easier but it gets managable but if your mindset is that 'this should be easy' then you'll be defeated even before you start. I think that's where im struggling with atm, cos if you go into a run thinking this will be the hardest thing then you can deal with almost anything running wise. But if you go into it expecting ease then you're not going to be prepared for it and it will be a slog. It's kind of how you frame it. When im squatting i expect every rep to be hard and it usually is that hard but you get it done. If i expected it to be ez then i'd never get thru it because it's not the right mental frame to complete the exercise

it's different with heart muscle (and capillary density). it responds well to very relaxed, low intensity, longer duration (30+ minutes) running.

45 minutes is my sweet spot for very light runs which still improve my aerobic capacity, without stressing me at all.

if you can walk at an easy pace, then you can run (albeit slowly) at an easy pace. for strong/elite runners, their slow pace looks very fast. that's why people get confused. an elite runner can jog 6:30 min/mi pace for example, at like absolutely no effort.

most running should be easy. the mistake most people make is not realizing how easy, easy, really is.

my preferred pace for most easy runs is 9:30-10:30 min/mi for 30-90 minutes. that's very slow.

if you take your squat mindset to running, then you are a sprinting, not running.. :D

I think i made some progress understanding wtf is going on with my schizophrenic running lately. This morning treadmill run, I start warming up at 6km/hr which is the lowest of the hotkey speed buttons that are not a walk (it goes 3, 6 then 9). So every 15s i increase the speed by 0.2-0.5km/hr .. usually only 0.2km/hr after teh getting up to around 7km/hr.  I take about 5 minutes to work up to 9.2km/hr which is a 6:30ish pace. And at 5 minutes in im like, yea this sucks, my right calf is complaining and ive got a crazy pump (on R leg mind you) and i just want to stop and quit running for good and say it's not for me. Mo farah's warmup sucks. Im prob better off going from zero to 10km/hr than this. tbh.

Around about 10 minutes if i stick around ive bumped the speed up to 10.2km/hr or so, now suddenly my form changes (im still not srue if form is now better or worse at slower speeds?) but running is easier the faster i go. So it almost seems like if im going anything below a speed my form is inefficient/unsustainable. Above that speed and im fine, i can run better/longer and now im tasking my cardiovascular system instead of my mental system.

It's almost as if i can do a long tempo at 10km/hr but trying to stay below that speed and it's torture. And of course it's a fine line because if i cross say 11km/hr now it's hard work but it feels more productive all the same. It's a struggle for me to maintain 12km/hr which is just a 5 minute pace. It's almost as if when i started doing these longer/easier runs i just got weaker (mentally) and im no longer challenging myself with hard runs but instead im torturing myself with slower runs. I think from here on it makes zero sense to do any more long/slow running. If what you say is true that longer runs build fitness better then i should just do that but not run, bike or row instead. I think that will suit me because because i can't seem to figure out the sweet spot of running slow enough without having form/mindset problems.

Quote
I think that will suit me because because i can't seem to figure out the sweet spot of running slow enough without having form/mindset problems.

your subconscious is just designing ways for you to quit doing it.

if you have mindset problems going really slow, then that's the issue you need to work on right there.. the discipline to overcome a "mindset problem" while going super slow.

if you can walk without mindset problems, then you can run very slow without mindset problems.

running could be a great way for you to tame some of these things going on in your head. one of the most important aspects of endurance/conditioning is the ability to suppress quit signals, ignore them completely, or just deal with them.

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4598 on: January 08, 2019, 12:20:38 am »
0
sorry that was per km pace not miles. I dont know what a mile is  :wowthatwasnutswtf:

i can do real world running at slow pace better but on TM it's harder getting a good warmup b/c it's locking you into a speed at all times. but lately running any pace just doesn't seem feasible .. im not sure why, my calf starts bugging out. it might be an over-use thing going on

Thought about it more and im pretty sure running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns with it very quickly b/c of competing recovery resources. Something like limiting my daily running to 5km but trying to improve speed will help me more. To get fitness i won't get it from running but perhaps from a workout like the following:
- Treadmill run (or road if i run to the gym)  30 min (at around 5-6min/km pace)
- Row 30 min (for a given HR goal even tho i don't trust these gadgets for that .. will figure it out somehow)
- Bike 30 min.

That's a 90 minute 'long' cardio workout without the problems of trying to do a long run at a too slow pace that the total mileage is embarrassingly low (like 10-12km). It has better carry over to bball because the running is more specific to the way i feel during games (ded lol) and with the cross training of the rowing for upper body and bike to take fatigue out of beating up joints that running more would entail. win win?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 02:16:52 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4599 on: January 08, 2019, 07:52:47 pm »
0
Bodyweight(AM): 84.4kg (9 Jan)
Diet compliance: 5/5 days
Daily Squat: 53/53 days
Daily Run: 53/53 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
 Fast TM run - 5km total (see notes) @ 4:46/km pace 


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x155, 1x150, 10x130(PR)
  BX 14x70kg(+band, PR)

Evening:
  


Notes:
  • First TM run at the gym. I just wanted to check it out, in theory it should be better because of A/C and better commercial treadmill. In practice it was okay but nothing great. Ran 1km at 12.5-12.6km, shoe lace came undone, did it up and ran another 3km at 12.6km/hr (4:46/km). Took a rest for a minute and did another km just faster (4:27/km) than my current race pace goal of 4:30/km. Done. Hard run, but, feels more productive than wasting my time with pointless runs i'd been doing too much of with no concept of progression. I need to know every thing i do in training has a purpose and running lost that along the way when i got seduced by slow running. The idea you can do it easier and get benefits sounds good on paper i must admit. It's prob fine for runners who just need to autoreg and limit their training intensity. It doesn't apply to me because im not a runner with that problem. 
  • Reconsidering whether it was my aerobic ability or my anaerobic ability that limits my performance in basketball. What if i have got it wrong and my aerobic fitness was fine the whole time but i needed to focus on anaerobic? These harder fast runs are probably better for training both though, so that's another plus point.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 02:17:26 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31932
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +7997
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4600 on: January 08, 2019, 10:22:24 pm »
+1
good point.

you should probably get an oxygen desaturation mask & hit the battle ropes hard for 3 x 30s.

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31932
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +7997
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4601 on: January 08, 2019, 11:45:32 pm »
+3
good point.

you should probably get an oxygen desaturation mask & hit the battle ropes hard for 3 x 30s.

if you want strong conditioning, you'll want to improve your aerobic base. there's plenty of ways to do that. running slow+long/frequently isn't the only way, but it's one of the best, easiest, and most effective. it's so easy that it's hard. people want to feel like they worked out hard, it's black magic that jogging for 1 hour real slow can improve your conditioning. but it's not black magic, it targets the heart, which responds very well to such long duration low stress activities -> every beat is a rep. the goal is to run easy (conversational) that the heart fills with as much blood as possible per beat, causing it to adapt to pump more blood per beat, at any exercise intensity.

plenty of "fit moms" & crossfit folks work out hard every day for example, but can't handle a game of basketball. training like that is easy.. :/

overanalysis can be a real problem. i'm all for you figuring it out tho.. so, find something that works & get results. but saying you've reached diminishing returns or something isn't for you, after only a few weeks .. plus saying you need to "see a progression" etc, is a little frustrating.

brb yelling at kingfish for not progressing his daily squatting to 800 lb by now..

i think he's a good example.. find something you can do daily, and just do it. don't switch shit up often, don't do all kinds of weird crazy cool shit, just pick a few things and do it daily, to perfection. if you can run hard daily, go for it. but most people can't.

in addition to that, normal "basketball people" play basketball daily, that's their daily squatting, or their daily running.

pc!

Coges

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2667
  • Respect: +1881
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4602 on: January 08, 2019, 11:58:31 pm »
+2
running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns

C'mon man.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

Coges

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2667
  • Respect: +1881
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4603 on: January 09, 2019, 12:06:59 am »
+2
good point.

you should probably get an oxygen desaturation mask & hit the battle ropes hard for 3 x 30s.

if you want strong conditioning, you'll want to improve your aerobic base. there's plenty of ways to do that. running slow+long/frequently isn't the only way, but it's one of the best, easiest, and most effective. it's so easy that it's hard. people want to feel like they worked out hard, it's black magic that jogging for 1 hour real slow can improve your conditioning. but it's not black magic, it targets the heart, which responds very well to such long duration low stress activities -> every beat is a rep. the goal is to run easy (conversational) that the heart fills with as much blood as possible per beat, causing it to adapt to pump more blood per beat, at any exercise intensity.

plenty of "fit moms" & crossfit folks work out hard every day for example, but can't handle a game of basketball. training like that is easy.. :/

overanalysis can be a real problem. i'm all for you figuring it out tho.. so, find something that works & get results. but saying you've reached diminishing returns or something isn't for you, after only a few weeks .. plus saying you need to "see a progression" etc, is a little frustrating.

brb yelling at kingfish for not progressing his daily squatting to 800 lb by now..

i think he's a good example.. find something you can do daily, and just do it. don't switch shit up often, don't do all kinds of weird crazy cool shit, just pick a few things and do it daily, to perfection. if you can run hard daily, go for it. but most people can't.

in addition to that, normal "basketball people" play basketball daily, that's their daily squatting, or their daily running.

pc!

This ^^^

Coming from someone who's not a runner but tried to join the "squad", running slow is an absolute mind fuck. It's embarrassing, there's no ego to it and sometimes you can be confused with someone who broke into a fast walk. It absolutely works though.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

maxent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2498
  • Respect: +1662
    • View Profile
Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4604 on: January 09, 2019, 12:30:24 am »
+1
Ok lemme summarise what i'm actually trying to claim here. I think (internet?) running dogma has behind it two driving beliefs:
- mileage per week (more is better)
- slow long runs (slower is better)

and im finding that this running dogma has some underlying assumptions which are not explicitly stated but once accounted for make it infeasible for me:
 - it presupposes you're mainly a runner which necessarily entails BEING an actual runner
  -- training only running,
  -- having a runners build (light)


these assumptions don't apply to me (anymore?) and teh heavier and weight trained (powerful etc) i get the further i go from these principles because lots of mileage while training other things (daily squat max, basketball in-season training, ) just don't see it working out. It also doesn't suit me pyschologically because if training economy is at a premium (and it very much is) - i dont have the training time for following orthodox running good practices above..

gotta go, but im not saying orthodox running isn't the right way for a runner. im claiming it's unworkable for me having tried it and finding it doesn't suit me. i was running pretty much intuitively to start with but now im going to go back to that....

Plus andrew all your arguments for long slow running - i just hear do bike / rowing instead, much less beating up of joints and easier to fit into normal (not solely running) training!

edit, but the thing which really cofnuses me about the dogma is the idea that 'longer runs' build fitness but these people intentionally leave out what they mean by long - is it duration? is it miles? if it's both then sorry i can't do it. you'd make every beginner run LONGER just because they're slow runners initially. how does that make sense? if it's only duration then why dont you fucking say so? why so vague? useless. now if it's duration if i take 2 hours to do a 8km run say, does that 'work' when i cud have done 5km in 25 minutes and gone home. im sure a good running coach woudl be able to answer my questions and even help me out but im kinda done trying to unravel running dogma (my youtube recommendations are like 99% running spam now which im already sick of). tbh im not sure these ppl have any secret sauce about running, their advice comes from ppl who are doing the same thing over and over and it's not clear what part of that advice is good and what just works because doing anything a lot will work ..
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 02:18:50 am by maxent »
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template