Author Topic: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High  (Read 82872 times)

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adarqui

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1350 on: January 29, 2019, 03:00:01 pm »
+1
congrats on the PR man!! 150kg, strong. :ibsquatting:

Funny thing is I can't seem to find anyone on youtube doing counter movement jumps with barbell.

it's too risky imho. i've mentioned that a few times, i just don't think the risk-vs-reward ratio is worth it.

i fell out of favor with "REA squats" and "jump squats" a long time ago.

putting safety first (AELS), impact shock with a barbell on the back is def risky.

if you continue to do it, keep it safe (obviously).

but like acole said, having any back pains and performing jump squats might not be the best combo.

pc!

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1351 on: January 29, 2019, 06:42:32 pm »
+1
congrats on the PR man!! 150kg, strong. :ibsquatting:

Funny thing is I can't seem to find anyone on youtube doing counter movement jumps with barbell.

it's too risky imho. i've mentioned that a few times, i just don't think the risk-vs-reward ratio is worth it.

i fell out of favor with "REA squats" and "jump squats" a long time ago.

putting safety first (AELS), impact shock with a barbell on the back is def risky.

if you continue to do it, keep it safe (obviously).

but like acole said, having any back pains and performing jump squats might not be the best combo.

pc!

Thanks  :highfive:.

I try to keep safe by listening to my body, observing how my body reacts and how it changes e.g when I do squat jumps I try and maintain form and sometimes I see that sometimes I hyperextends to make it easier to jump but I make sure to avoid that.

The jump squats with the pause doesn't hurt my back at all as I only add 5kg plates, but the jump squats the reactive version i'm not so sure.

I will miss out the jump squats and see how my back feels from that.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1352 on: January 31, 2019, 11:59:02 am »
+4
Date: 31/01/2019
Soreness: lower back only at certain postures
BW: 148lbs

Condition: Icy cold outside, frosted windscreen but once I got to the gym, it was nice and warm because of the sun minus the cold wind. Missed out on jump squats.

Warm up
   ankle mobility
   calf stretches
   seated hamstring stretch
   quad stretch
   single leg hip thrusts on bench
   single leg high knee hip holds with supporting leg on balls of foot x 20 sec
   back stretch - front and back
   
Pre-workout treadmill run
   treadmill run 23km/h at 15% incline 20 seconds - with 2 moments of without holding runs for 1 seconds

Workout
   Box Squats
      - 1 x 4 @20kg
      - 1 x 5 @60kg
      - 1 x 3 @100kg
      - 3 x 4,5,5 @140kg

   Calf raises on leg press machine
      - 3 x 20 @140kg - excluding weight of actual sled or the thing I push with my feet

   Romanian Deadlifts
      - 1 x 5 @20kg
      - 3 x 7 @50kg

   Walking neutral posture with weight belt
      - 2 laps with 20kg on belt - really targets your glutes, aim was for lower back

   Back extension
      - 1 x 5 @bw
      - 1 x 10 @holding 20kg plate with 30 second pause on last rep

   Cable twists
      - 1 x 10 each side @10kg
      - 1 x 10 each side @15kg

Cool down
   stretch
   walk back

Comment
It was a good session, the box squats were good because it was more of a struggle of leg strength and also the balance of when I try to get up. first rep was a mental problem that I failed on the 4th rep and I was sitting thinking shall i just drop it on the safety pin which was 1 inch away but I managed to gather the strength and finish that rep and rack it. After the workout low back pain mainly the erector spinae muscle was fatigued and sore. The calf raises was done on the leg press as barbell on back doesn't feel good with the calf raises, it's the way you unrack a barbell that can feel comfortable or painful on the lower back. The RDL was good, back was not sore when at the bottom but only when I try to drive hip forward, this makes my back hyper-extend so painful there. back extension painful but once you do it for a while the pain subsides. walk with weight belts felt it on the glutes and the cable twist was good.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

vag

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1353 on: February 01, 2019, 05:38:17 am »
+2
Wait , you are now repping 140kg box squats? When did that happen? That is amazing progress!!!  :headbang: :highfive: :ibsquatting:
woot

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1354 on: February 01, 2019, 07:18:31 am »
+1
Wait , you are now repping 140kg box squats? When did that happen? That is amazing progress!!!  :headbang: :highfive: :ibsquatting:

Thanks  :highfive:

I just recently managed to rep out 3 sets of 5. I find these more easier than back squats as due to my long leg disadvantage I am weak in the hole but with this it's more comfortable.

----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1355 on: February 03, 2019, 09:34:28 am »
0
Date: 03/02/2019
Soreness: lower back
BW: 147.8lbs

Condition: It had been snowing this past week and since saturday, it had stopped but the track was still covered in snow even though it was sunny the whole day. Had to do plyometric session.

Warm up
   ankle mobility
   calf stretch
   seated hamstring stretch
   glute bridges on the bench
   quad stretch on bench
   high knee hip holds x 20 seconds
   back stretch - front and back
   
Workout
   Kettlebell swings 2 x 10 - painful for lower back so would stop midway
 
   ME Ankle hops w/ minimal ground contact 3 x 10
   
   Tuck Jumps /w minimal ground contact 3 x 10
      - painful for lower back

   Broad Jumps 2 x 5 jumps
      - jumped as far but not max effort to avoid triggering by back pain
      - average of 2.23m

   Seated box jumps
      - 3 x 7 @35 inches

   Planks x 1 min

Cool down
   stretches
   walk back
   standing vertical jump - couldn't do it as my lower back pain prevented me

Comment
It was a bad session because I couldn't run but an alright plyometric session. Back pain is feeling better from Thursday.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 09:44:59 am by seifullaah73 »
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

acole14

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1356 on: February 03, 2019, 09:39:54 pm »
+4
Workout
   Kettlebell swings 2 x 10 - painful for lower back so would stop midway
 
   ME Ankle hops w/ minimal ground contact 3 x 10
   
   Tuck Jumps /w minimal ground contact 3 x 10
      - painful for lower back

   Broad Jumps 2 x 5 jumps
      - jumped as far but not max effort to avoid triggering by back pain
      - average of 2.23m

   Seated box jumps
      - 3 x 7 @35 inches

   Planks x 1 min

Cool down
   stretches
   walk back
   standing vertical jump - couldn't do it as my lower back pain prevented me

Comment
It was a bad session because I couldn't run but an alright plyometric session. Back pain is feeling better from Thursday.

Mate, it doesn't sound like your back pain is progressing very well at all if you're having trouble with those exercises. How's your hamstring strength/flexibility? I'm banging on about it, but bad back pain will end you if you let it get really bad.

Also, my experience with box squats is that they are very heavy on your lower back. You are doing a ton of weight, and I remember too that you could really ramp them up compared to full squats, but that might not be the best thing for you right know. I'm probably too conservative, but I'd be dropping them for a few weeks. I don't know about whether just doing the exercise with a light weight and building up, as you've done, is the always the best way to physically prepare yourself for heavier reps. Your leg strength at lower levels might be fine to mask any weakness in other parts, and those weak parts might not get strengthened sufficiently. Something KB goblet squatting might be better to keep your torso fully straight and engaged. Progress on that and build in box squats from scratch. And I recommend SL DB deadlifts alternating the side you hold the weight, as well as all the rotational core stuff as always.

One other thing you could be doing (and you should be anyway) is some easy tempo sprinting. I always found that low back pain/discomfort would be ameliorated when doing a good volume of actual sprinting - maybe because it's recruiting your hamstrings and glutes in a different way. YMMV.

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1357 on: February 04, 2019, 04:38:25 pm »
0
Workout
   Kettlebell swings 2 x 10 - painful for lower back so would stop midway
 
   ME Ankle hops w/ minimal ground contact 3 x 10
   
   Tuck Jumps /w minimal ground contact 3 x 10
      - painful for lower back

   Broad Jumps 2 x 5 jumps
      - jumped as far but not max effort to avoid triggering by back pain
      - average of 2.23m

   Seated box jumps
      - 3 x 7 @35 inches

   Planks x 1 min

Cool down
   stretches
   walk back
   standing vertical jump - couldn't do it as my lower back pain prevented me

Comment
It was a bad session because I couldn't run but an alright plyometric session. Back pain is feeling better from Thursday.

Mate, it doesn't sound like your back pain is progressing very well at all if you're having trouble with those exercises. How's your hamstring strength/flexibility? I'm banging on about it, but bad back pain will end you if you let it get really bad.

Also, my experience with box squats is that they are very heavy on your lower back. You are doing a ton of weight, and I remember too that you could really ramp them up compared to full squats, but that might not be the best thing for you right know. I'm probably too conservative, but I'd be dropping them for a few weeks. I don't know about whether just doing the exercise with a light weight and building up, as you've done, is the always the best way to physically prepare yourself for heavier reps. Your leg strength at lower levels might be fine to mask any weakness in other parts, and those weak parts might not get strengthened sufficiently. Something KB goblet squatting might be better to keep your torso fully straight and engaged. Progress on that and build in box squats from scratch. And I recommend SL DB deadlifts alternating the side you hold the weight, as well as all the rotational core stuff as always.

One other thing you could be doing (and you should be anyway) is some easy tempo sprinting. I always found that low back pain/discomfort would be ameliorated when doing a good volume of actual sprinting - maybe because it's recruiting your hamstrings and glutes in a different way. YMMV.

On a quick note, when I hurt my back usually in a couple days when I do some ball rolling on the muscle and stretches the pain subsides i.e. today the pain has reduced dramatically. So I decided to those same exercises, which I did on sunday which caused leg low back pain after stretching back and hips, the result was that the kettlebell swings and the standing vertical jump did not cause much pain if not any at all and same with tuck jumps with very minimal pain. The broad jump didn't really cause any pain on sunday but I was hesitant to put full effort. So the pain will be almost completely gone tomorrow ready to do the box squats, which will make the pain come back up again after the workout and last for a few days again and repeat, but I don't know what that means about the state of my back.

In regards to my hamstring flexibility, I can lay on my back and lift both legs individually 90 degrees and I stretch it grabbing my trouser sleeves and pull it close to me. So I think my hamstring flexibility is good.

I used to do single leg Romanian dead lifts using dumbbells in both hands, but I stopped because it was hurting my back. But then again I was doing it while balancing on one leg, I didn't know I could put the non working leg on the floor at the back.

In regards to tempo sprints, can you give me an example. Do you want me to do them every time I go to the gym.

I may also incorporate long walks when I get the opportunity.

Thanks


----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

acole14

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1358 on: February 05, 2019, 12:37:17 am »
+3
... the pain will be almost completely gone tomorrow ready to do the box squats, which will make the pain come back up again after the workout and last for a few days again and repeat, but I don't know what that means about the state of my back.

It's obviously hard to know exactly how much pain/discomfort you're feeling and whether it's above normal expectations from this type of  training, but it might mean your back cannot handle box squats right now. You could be playing with fire by continuing to go back to them and repeating this cycle. Ideally you'd want to see the discomfort fall as you get more sessions in, but if it's always bad, it probably means you should back off for awhile.

If you can, go to a good PT and get some treatment on your back. It might just be really knotted up. Or you can lie on your back, get your legs up on a couch, and get a hard ball (hockey ball or similar) into your lower spinal erectors, gluteus medius, and midback spinal erectors. See how that feels after doing it for 10-15mins a day. Then I'd just lay off box squats for awhile, but still do your other exercises that don't induce the pain.

Also, I would consider box squats to be a late-season peaking exercise and not something you're using as a main lift throughout the year. I think the best course of action for your lower body compound power lift (be it DLs, pulls/cleans, or squat) is start with a high volume of full RoM reps, low-ish weight (still ~60-70% 1RM, 5-10 reps) for most of your training block, then progressively reduce the reps, raise the weight, and finally perform the supramax versions like box or quarter squats, block DL, or hang power cleans etc., so you're moving a very high load as fast as possible. These last ones should only be over a relatively brief window in your training plan - because the aim is mostly to get stronger and more powerful at these exercises without getting hurt, which prevents you from doing your sport-specific training (sprinting for you).

In regards to my hamstring flexibility, I can lay on my back and lift both legs individually 90 degrees and I stretch it grabbing my trouser sleeves and pull it close to me. So I think my hamstring flexibility is good.

I used to do single leg Romanian dead lifts using dumbbells in both hands, but I stopped because it was hurting my back. But then again I was doing it while balancing on one leg, I didn't know I could put the non working leg on the floor at the back.

Flexibility sounds fine, don't go crazy trying to stretch yourself out to the level of a contortionist. SLDLs are great and they could help a lot, especially switching the load halfway through as I described somewhere. It might address some imbalances you've got in terms of hip/glute/hamstring muscles. But definitely don't rest your rear leg on the floor though - you want to have the balance aspect.

In regards to tempo sprints, can you give me an example. Do you want me to do them every time I go to the gym.

Are you still being coached? Ask your coach if so. A good example might be [100 sprint - 100 slow jog - 100 sprint - 100 slow jog - 100 sprint - 200 slow jog - 200 sprint]^n, all at a pace where you're up sprinting on the ball of your foot, but not much faster (60-70% speed or so).

I may also incorporate long walks when I get the opportunity.

Thanks

Do that when you're retired and save your energy  :). Joking - any active low-impact stuff on off days is good.

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1359 on: February 05, 2019, 05:44:47 am »
0
Thanks for that. Makes sense.

So as for lift to replace box squats as you mentioned, will try squats but it can't be full depth as I have long legs so depth will not be at parallel. If back squats hurt my back. What's another alternative?

EDIT: Couldn't go to gym, car problems.

But I was trying to practice the back squats at home and there is a certain depth I can reach pain free and the hips are tight because I didn't stretch the hips but beyond this point my pelvis from the point of the lower back rotates inwards and then I go to full depth and this cause slight pain in the lower back and especially when coming up also pains my back as my butt has rotate outwards before driving the hip forward.

But when I do squats at a depth I am comfortable before the butt rotates inwards (i think this is butt winking) I can't seem to keep my back straight from my upper back, to my thoracic spine to my lower back to the tail, there is always some amounts of inward curving at the lower back and my butt coming out a bit, that's me trying to keep my chest out and shoulders over my feet and minimizing the amount my hip travels back. When I reach the bottom then it becomes straight as the butt is starting rotate inwards and do the butt winking thing.

Image below was me practicing squat with stick on my upper back. the image on the right is my full depth I can go and you can see how my back is hyper extended and the pain comes if I go lower and then my butt rotates inwards and goes to a butt wink position.



But this is as low as I can go. This is not a problem with the box squats that I am aware of, maybe my back hyper-extend but I am not aware of it like the above images.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:37:06 am by seifullaah73 »
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1360 on: February 06, 2019, 03:12:10 am »
0
I was researching about why back hyper-extends during the squat and most of them say that you need to contract the glutes with the hips open i.e. knees and thighs facing outwards same as toes and then squeeze glutes from standing before descending and that should fix that issue. But the deeper you go, the harder it is to maintain that contraction till you reach the bottom you won't feel any contraction.

But I think this may help with the back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

adarqui

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1361 on: February 06, 2019, 02:33:32 pm »
+4
dno.

what made my back/knees/body feel great while squatting, was:

1) half squat
2) plates under heels or olympic lifting shoes
3) getting in tons of air each rep
4) knowing when to back off & when to push, or when to stop doing a movement/variation

that's it for me.

back shouldn't be hurting during or after squats. if there is back pain (or any pain) for a few days following squatting, and/or that back pain is preventing you from performing other movements (like broad jumps etc), then squatting sounds like it's hurting, not helping.

pain "cycles" are a problem. training shouldn't hurt.

hurting ones self in training is a big problem. theoretically, we should never get hurt in training. in competition yes (it's a possibility), but not training. training injuries are often related to our stubbornness.

IMHO, one should *always* work "below" pain threshold or simply avoid movements that cause pain.

acole has brought up tons of good points.

seifullaah73

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1362 on: February 06, 2019, 04:11:58 pm »
+1
dno.

what made my back/knees/body feel great while squatting, was:

1) half squat
2) plates under heels or olympic lifting shoes
3) getting in tons of air each rep
4) knowing when to back off & when to push, or when to stop doing a movement/variation

that's it for me.

back shouldn't be hurting during or after squats. if there is back pain (or any pain) for a few days following squatting, and/or that back pain is preventing you from performing other movements (like broad jumps etc), then squatting sounds like it's hurting, not helping.

pain "cycles" are a problem. training shouldn't hurt.

hurting ones self in training is a big problem. theoretically, we should never get hurt in training. in competition yes (it's a possibility), but not training. training injuries are often related to our stubbornness.

IMHO, one should *always* work "below" pain threshold or simply avoid movements that cause pain.

acole has brought up tons of good points.

Great points. I have a disadvantage structure wise and it is my stubbornness that I want to do things that a person should be able to do and then I look for alternatives. I feel like this pain won't go away so I just work with it trying to minimize it the best I can. It's not painful pain but that niggling pain, which just stays in the background when your body is at a certain posture i.e. sitting, getting up and so forth.

You have mentioned half squats before and I did do them and then I went on to BSS and then I saw box squats were good for hips, so I wanted to do them, but not good for my back.

I will try out a few things you and acole suggested and try and work my way towards a pain free workout.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.
Holy Quran 94:5
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High

adarqui

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1363 on: February 06, 2019, 09:06:31 pm »
+2
dno.

what made my back/knees/body feel great while squatting, was:

1) half squat
2) plates under heels or olympic lifting shoes
3) getting in tons of air each rep
4) knowing when to back off & when to push, or when to stop doing a movement/variation

that's it for me.

back shouldn't be hurting during or after squats. if there is back pain (or any pain) for a few days following squatting, and/or that back pain is preventing you from performing other movements (like broad jumps etc), then squatting sounds like it's hurting, not helping.

pain "cycles" are a problem. training shouldn't hurt.

hurting ones self in training is a big problem. theoretically, we should never get hurt in training. in competition yes (it's a possibility), but not training. training injuries are often related to our stubbornness.

IMHO, one should *always* work "below" pain threshold or simply avoid movements that cause pain.

acole has brought up tons of good points.

Great points. I have a disadvantage structure wise and it is my stubbornness that I want to do things that a person should be able to do and then I look for alternatives. I feel like this pain won't go away so I just work with it trying to minimize it the best I can. It's not painful pain but that niggling pain, which just stays in the background when your body is at a certain posture i.e. sitting, getting up and so forth.

You have mentioned half squats before and I did do them and then I went on to BSS and then I saw box squats were good for hips, so I wanted to do them, but not good for my back.

I will try out a few things you and acole suggested and try and work my way towards a pain free workout.

cool, sounds good.

but having pain with things like "sitting, getting up" etc, is a sign that you probably need to not exacerbate it anymore (not cause it to reoccur) etc, and try to get it to heal fully. anything that causes your back to have pain when sitting or standing up, is not worth it. plenty of other movements that can substitute without causing such symptoms. those symptoms can lead to real injury at some point, best to try and avoid that IMHO.

pc!

LBSS

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Re: A Journey to Running Fast and Jumping High
« Reply #1364 on: February 07, 2019, 01:44:52 am »
+2
the most important point in the above is "don't do things in training that injure you or carry a high injury risk." full-depth squatting is that for you. don't do it. the second-most important is "squatting is GPP for sprinting, you don't need to do it at all given that your primary goal is to be faster." so, again, don't do it. and don't worry about not being able to do it.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
wednesday: fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses