Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 277375 times)

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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4620 on: January 09, 2019, 10:21:12 pm »
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For what it's worth, it's prob cos i'd been listening to too many ppl. Like cicirunner on youtube and Vo2maxproductions who stress the miles. not sure if anyone, not even andrew had explicitly mentioned duration as the key variable while limiting distance on the longer run. No one says you have to do 'X hours' per week they all talk about '100 miles' per week

I think that's your main problem right there. Listening to runners giving advice on becoming a runner when you don't want to be a runner. I think Andrew has possibly the best advice here. Not just given his ability and knowledge as a runner but also his understanding of basketball as well.

Also I think it's worth noting that the aerobic system takes years to truly maximise whereas the anaerobic system takes far less time (weeks to a couple of months).

"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4621 on: January 10, 2019, 01:07:19 am »
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LBSS, quick recap:
1. i told him to play more full court basketball
2. he says he can't etc
3. he came up with some running stuff, which was basically 2x/day, but lots of hard running
4. i told him to do most of his runs slow/relaxed, not looking at pace, for ~30 minutes or so, then try to get 1-2 hard sessions in per week
5. he said running was making his squat feel amazing, best thing ever, feels so strong/good etc
6. treadmill vs road vs grass stuff
7. diminishing returns after 2 weeks, slow running isn't for him
8. slow running is dogma
9. he needs to feel like he can progress each workout etc, so running might not be for him
10. he'll stop short of calling it nonsensical
11. he says part of the fun is figuring it out for yourself, which i can identify with

i wrote the brief recap because i saw a devil's advocate comment. i forget exactly what, but it was related to pace etc.

i told him not to worry about the watch, pace, etc.. don't worry about how slow he looks compared to others.

tbh, i think he has problems going that slow because of "ego". maxent has made some comments which elude to that.

i run very slow, most often. even slower than old ladies, who can sometimes pass me. doesn't bother me one bit. so i'm definitely someone who has seen the benefits of running very slow/relaxed. thing is, for me it works best at ~45 minutes or so (and adds more benefit the longer i go). for maxent, it would probably work great at 30 minutes.

so, if he was enjoying his 2x/day running, or even every day running, he should be going hard 2x/week, with the rest of the sessions slow & relaxed .. occasionally throwing in some short strides or ending with them, if he wanted. that'd be my advice.

he wanted to go faster like every workout/week etc, but it just doesn't work that way with running.

i'll stop just short of calling it nonsensical tho.

nice. because calling something nonsensical, while not knowing much about the subject, would be well - nonsensical.

 :ninja: :uhhhfacepalm:

also you asked if it's mileage or duration .. i told you several times, it's duration! don't worry about miles.

every single one of my runs, i simply write "1 hour" , "2 hours", "3 hours", "30 min", "45 min" etc.. i don't even write the mileage.

if you write the mileage, it makes you run too fast.

running to improve general fitness is very simple. you've already overcomplicated it like crazy. i mean that's not good to do in itself, but to do it with this confidence of calling the time tested basics "nonsensical" and "dogma" is just ridiculous. when it comes to conditioning you're self admittedly clueless, so chill with those "attack words" lmao. you know alot more about lifting/diet etc .. but conditioning is a completely different paradigm, takes a long time to learn/master. it's not easy. and the hardest aspect to learn about it, is how simple it is, yet how hard it is to perform the simple basics. the basics are hard to perform because they are so simple. they aren't shiny or amazing.

bottom line.. to build a strong foundation, one needs to improve their work capacity specific to the total duration of efforts, and total duration per week, per month, per year. etc.

peace!

That was a great recap!! This morning run something clicked. i was doing what should be on paper an easy run and it felt not easy. Just like every run in the last couple of weeks, when ive complained that there is no such thing. But what i wasn't understanding or whatever is that every run has a background level of discomfort. And the mind is a liar sometimes. always?  Slow doesn't mean enjoyable or lack of discomfort. I guess i got thrown by the idea of a run being enjoyable etc, which would imply ...on first glance a lack of discomfort. But the body doesn't work like that. It's like you go a bit harder or a bit longer and the body releases more some ephinephrines  and this throws off your idea of pain/discomfort, now something that you might have just found uncomfortable could become enjoyable cos the hormones are flooding through your blood. Like you might be working harder but it feels less painful. Maybe the whole time you were describing something that is objectively easy on paper (eg slow pace) without realising i was understanding it to be in an epistemological sense. I start off even run (even every easy run) with great discomfort .. i want to quit because it's v. uncomfortable .. the longer the run is supposed to be the stronger the desire to abandon it because the discomfort seems insurmountable for that long a time, especially at the beginning when the finish is the farthest away. 

and this might be a good place to say that whatever ive been doing actually probably has worked and worked really well. when i started this experiment of daily running some 8 weeks ago i had no running background in my entire lifetime before it. Now im doing a 12km run in 75 minutes and i cut it short cos i didn't wanna get my long run goal today so i have something to look forward to progressing next time. but whatever that means .. the thing is i wanted to quit 5 minutes in. 6 minutes in. 10 minutes in. maybe around 15 minutes i was bargaining, im almost at 2.5km, that's a good milestone for an ez run, end it now. and then my shoe lace got undone and i said not again nike, mo farah your shoe sucks. so i ran another 30 minutes. at 45 minutes i tied my shoe lace and decided to break my long run PR of 65minutes. But somewhere i was thinking i cud prob even do 90 tbh .. something changed around 45 minutes .. running just got ........ easy? effortless. maybe it was cos i increased the pace to a sweet spot (9.7km/hr) but i felt i cud run all day .. form just felt right .. it clicked. and yet the initial discomfort had gone. so if i was doing easy runs the presence of discomfort didn't make them any hard - what made a run hard was  .. i dont know .. objectively it might be HR or something like that which isnt what ive been paying attention to. so i'll just stick the course now. lol.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:16:14 am by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4622 on: January 10, 2019, 01:10:01 am »
0
For what it's worth, it's prob cos i'd been listening to too many ppl. Like cicirunner on youtube and Vo2maxproductions who stress the miles. not sure if anyone, not even andrew had explicitly mentioned duration as the key variable while limiting distance on the longer run. No one says you have to do 'X hours' per week they all talk about '100 miles' per week

I think that's your main problem right there. Listening to runners giving advice on becoming a runner when you don't want to be a runner. I think Andrew has possibly the best advice here. Not just given his ability and knowledge as a runner but also his understanding of basketball as well.

Also I think it's worth noting that the aerobic system takes years to truly maximise whereas the anaerobic system takes far less time (weeks to a couple of months).

ya really looking forward to doing speed work. doing intervals. doing all that cool stuff. but i haven't earnt the right to it just yet, got to put in the time and build my base up
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4623 on: January 10, 2019, 01:11:25 am »
+3
Bodyweight(AM): 84.1kg (10 Jan)
Diet compliance: 0/0 days
Daily Squat: 54/54 days
Daily Run: 54/54 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
 Long TM run - 75 mins, 12km total,  6:15/km pace (PR; minutes, distance) 


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x152.5, 8x132.5(PR), 13x120(PR)
  OHP 5x50, 3x60, 5x57.5, 7x55
  Chinup 5x12kg, 6x10kg
  BX 15x70kg(+band, PR)

Evening:
  


Notes:
  • Perfect cool morning for a long run, took advantage. Was like 22-24 degrees C.  The notable thing about htis run was i ran the last 10 minutes at above my long run goal pace of 10km/hr. And it feels like ive gone down a cup size which i didn't expect considering how much weight ive gained. ive gained weight and got leaner? that's cool.
  • Started a new micro cycle at 13 and 8 reps of 120kg and 132.5kg respectively. Gna build up to 15x130kg and 8x140kg concurrently this week.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 10:00:57 am by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4624 on: January 10, 2019, 08:13:32 pm »
+1
Bodyweight(AM): 85.0kg (11 Jan)
Diet compliance: 1/1 days
Daily Squat: 55/55 days
Daily Run: 55/55 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
  Slow Run - 7.65km, 49:50, 6:31/km pace


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x152.5, 10x132.5(PR), 14x120(PR)
  BX 10x80(+band, PR) 

Evening:
  Full court pickup game  ~ 1hr  


Notes:
  • While i wanna gain weight i didn't think i'd hit 85kg so soon. Increasing bw for another 18 days including today. Still unsure what my upper limit shud be, i feel 86.5kg is prob a good place to end, from there can cut to 85.0kg in a couple of weeks max. Any longer cutting and i'll get weaker and lose muscle, so 86.5kg for now. Then again maybe 87kg would work too cos you lose some glycogen easily and cutting 1.5kg of fat is do-able once that happens. Will see.
  • Kinda regretted the morning run but i wasn't sure if i'd get nice conditions like this again for a while this summer so went for it. I know cardio will help keep bodyfat down down while putting on bw but it's a fine line before you start eating into recovery and gains. Lets hope i find a nice balance.
  • I worry if lots of slow running is not just making me even slower as an athlete. When i look down and see how my feet are moving glacially it just seems weird af ha.. i feel like im some old man jogger. lol. But signs are promising i felt kinda quick in my first basketball session of the season last friday.
  • I haven't been logging but today my cadence was 149 which is what ive found my 'faster' runs to be. It probably started around 145 for slow jogs so ive made very modest improvements. Need to do a lot better but will be interesting to see what it is for a fastest GPS run, just to compare. Unfortunately i haven't got the records to check against. Next time i do one, i'll keep an eye at cadence.
  • I went so long (~11 days) between ohp/chinup workouts that by the time i did it (yesterday) my body had detrained those muscles and my abs were torched today. weakened core is bad news for squatting so it was a subpar squat session. Forced it all the same. Hopefully the rest of the week will be better.
  • I went to put some shots up tonight and got invited into a full court pickup game. Was craze. These philipino guys .. a few of them are good ballers too but the rest are meh. Lots of cherry picking and almost every second basket was transition fast breaks. I welcomed it cos i wanted to run lol. Suprisingly my fitness held up okay .. but i did find myself winded after a few bouts (i was actually trying to play hard on both sides of the court). Maybe that's where the interval training will help?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:27:37 am by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4625 on: January 11, 2019, 10:35:49 am »
+1
A few things i wanted to put into a separate post. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence!

Forget running for a second. I have really terrible cadence even for walking, I realised tonight. And ive always marvelled watching pros playing in the NBA, why their feet move so quickly when they're just doing normal movements around hte court. Bad cadence it turns out (from what i've been reading) plays a huge part in injury causation and good cadence helps to prevent injury. Something about taking the load of the joints and putting it more on the muscular system. After my first bball session in 6 months or so last weekend i felt my body was beaten up pretty good. Not as bad as it used to be in the past on the first game back mind you but still very noticeably.

But putting one and two together .. when playing pickup tonight i focused on cadence and just moving my feet quicker. They say you should think high knees .. and it felt comical at first but i could see it working.. i took my watch off and i doubt it cud track basketball anyway but now i wish i had some kind of footpod to track cadence just to see measurable improvements over time. The really interesting tho was afterwards i didn't feel beat up as i would normally .. and it's still just my 3rd session of the season so it's not like ive adapted to basketball already, just cadence seems to have helped a ton.

So im going to try to make some changes .. like walking out of the basketball court my normal cadence is so slow and leisurely but if i actively try to improve it then i scuttle along more purposely. I would like to see how that translates to basketball over time. I would like to see how it translates to life in general. Maybe it's the simple changes we make which have the most benefit.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:38:18 am by maxent »
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adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4626 on: January 11, 2019, 12:11:00 pm »
+1
A few things i wanted to put into a separate post. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence!

Forget running for a second. I have really terrible cadence even for walking, I realised tonight. And ive always marvelled watching pros playing in the NBA, why their feet move so quickly when they're just doing normal movements around hte court. Bad cadence it turns out (from what i've been reading) plays a huge part in injury causation and good cadence helps to prevent injury. Something about taking the load of the joints and putting it more on the muscular system. After my first bball session in 6 months or so last weekend i felt my body was beaten up pretty good. Not as bad as it used to be in the past on the first game back mind you but still very noticeably.

But putting one and two together .. when playing pickup tonight i focused on cadence and just moving my feet quicker. They say you should think high knees .. and it felt comical at first but i could see it working.. i took my watch off and i doubt it cud track basketball anyway but now i wish i had some kind of footpod to track cadence just to see measurable improvements over time. The really interesting tho was afterwards i didn't feel beat up as i would normally .. and it's still just my 3rd session of the season so it's not like ive adapted to basketball already, just cadence seems to have helped a ton.

So im going to try to make some changes .. like walking out of the basketball court my normal cadence is so slow and leisurely but if i actively try to improve it then i scuttle along more purposely. I would like to see how that translates to basketball over time. I would like to see how it translates to life in general. Maybe it's the simple changes we make which have the most benefit.

yup.

Quote
I worry if lots of slow running is not just making me even slower as an athlete.

don't.

Quote
When i look down and see how my feet are moving glacially it just seems weird af ha..

it's weird now, but from an evolutionary perspective, it was normal.

Quote
i feel like im some old man jogger.

so do i.

Quote
lol. But signs are promising i felt kinda quick in my first basketball session of the season last friday.

nice.



roughly:

my recovery runs & slow runs are ~150-165 SPM.
my moderate pace is 170-185 SPM.
my race SPM for 5k through half marathon, is ~190 SPM.
my race SPM for 1km to 1 mile, is ~200 SPM.
my race SPM for 200m is ~210-220+ SPM.

i do the vast majority of my running at 150-165 SPM, ie old man jogger level.

i get in ~1-2 sessions per week (including a possible race) at the 190+ SPM level.

i rarely hit 210-220+ SPM. but i can whenever i want.. and when i do, i can go 17-18.x mph.

the human body has different energy systems, meant for different survival/hunting scenarios. improving all of them is important, but they each have different frequencies in which you can make improvement. when you train one quality "really hard", it can improve to the detriment of other qualities - but that's mostly CNS related IMHO, everything recovers (or potentially overshoots) with taper/recovery periods. that's why slow running for example, is meant to actually be very slow. if every session is leaving you stale, then it would tap into recovery/strength gains. so, truly going slow/relaxed for recovery sessions (which still yield aerobic benefits) is very important. hitting it harder 1-2x/wk is fine and won't tap into anything. hitting it hard every day will make you stale as fu*k.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4627 on: January 11, 2019, 09:30:35 pm »
+3
I always find as I get heavier when i drive the ball, i become more and more unstoppable. My momentum just thrives on heavier bw. And even when lightweight, I remember in university days my friend remarking 'you're like a steam engine' cos i was hitting so hard (weighed lightweight too). He was much stronger than me but when driving the ball i would able to generate a lot of power nevertheless. So becoming actually heavier and more powerful and practising my driving i think i can become pretty much unstoppable. My problem is i intinctually shy away from contact .. which negates one of my abilities .. and because of that, the defender can neutralise me by guiding me away from the goal cos i'll keep taking off the accelerator lol.  I need to reprogram myself to embrace the contact cos more than likely im winning that battle almost every time. If it's a much bigger heavier guy im going to be a bit quicker, and get him to achor himself momentarily to allow me to make a move around him. if it's a smaller guy he'll bounce off me. Why shy away? Just something I need to consciously work on. I am playing today will try to get as much contact as possible.

Oh and yea and cadence. Woke up and just shuffling around the house and i drag my heels pretty much always. It gives me a weird gait, i never knew just thinking pick up my knees would fix that. Will keep working on it and make it habit and then hopefully it will carry over to the court and track as well.

Old man joggers lol. No problem, i'll keep that in mind, just let the body internalise the most appropriate speed for the activity at hand. But i must tell you, i don't think my cadence ever gets above 160. Now i want to go to the track and just do some all out 200m sprints and check the cadence and see if i'm right about that. If it turns out i have low cadence regardless of the type of run - any drill you can recommend welcome

i bet if anyone here actually saw me move in real life they could suggest changes that would make huge differences to my ability as an athlete just by observing. I really regret not taking up todday's offer to train with him back when i was in LA.

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4628 on: January 11, 2019, 09:32:19 pm »
0
Bodyweight(AM): 85.1kg (12 Jan)
Diet compliance: 0/0 days
Daily Squat: 56/56 days
Daily Run: 56/56 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
  TM Run - 30 mins, 5km, 06:00/km pace


Noon:
  BS 6x120, 1x152.5, 8x135(PR), 14x120
  BX 12x70kg(+band, PR)

Evening:
  Half court pckup  - 1.5hrs 


Notes:
  • Ate 3 slices of pizza last night so restart the diet counter. TBH it's really hard to eat enough to recover from my huge training load, 100% clean but still let me be honest with my logging
  • Couldn't get the 15th rep. A couple was lifting next to me and i had apologised in advance in case i was loud (they were really cool about it all haha) but when i got to the 14th i felt it was hard enough that i wasn't sure if i might just fail a 15th rep. I think most of my problem was i felt super self conscious about being a weird guy at the gym making a lot of noise etc. Was a bit self conscious, maybe if they weren't there i could have waited a bit to get my breath back and gone for a 15th. New plan is drop the weight to say 112.5kg and just go for even higher reps and then build back to 120kg once i've got the adaptation for long sets.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 05:45:23 am by maxent »
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adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4629 on: January 11, 2019, 10:03:29 pm »
0
But i must tell you, i don't think my cadence ever gets above 160. Now i want to go to the track and just do some all out 200m sprints and check the cadence and see if i'm right about that. If it turns out i have low cadence regardless of the type of run - any drill you can recommend welcome

there's no way you won't get above 160 SPM on a 200m sprint.

Quote
I really regret not taking up todday's offer to train with him back when i was in LA.

yup. :derp:

adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4630 on: January 11, 2019, 10:06:40 pm »
+1
Bodyweight(AM): 85.1kg (12 Jan)
Diet compliance: 0/0 days
Daily Squat: 56/56 days
Daily Run: 56/56 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
  


Noon:
   

Evening:
   


Notes:
  • Ate 3 slices of pizza last night so restart the diet counter. TBH it's really hard to eat enough to recover from my huge training load, 100% clean but still let me be honest with my logging

i ate ~2,500 kcal of milk chocolate almonds today.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4631 on: January 11, 2019, 10:47:38 pm »
+1
there's no way you won't get above 160 SPM on a 200m sprint.

Guess i'd have to find out! Morning run step freq was 151 today btw (that's just for the last 4km, the first km was just a warmup at v. slow speed and i didn't start the watch until end of warmup). I was checking it intermittently and it was around 155 .. but i think i must have had periods where it dropped below 150 to average 151. That would be super interesting to track, step freq thru the entire run.

Quote
Quote
I really regret not taking up todday's offer to train with him back when i was in LA.

yup. :derp:

Dont think i was willing to receive the advice i needed at that time. To be clear if i had got it from him personally i probably would have embraced it but the whole thing about the teacher and the glass full thing applied, i hadn't emptied my glass at that point. And that's what I needed before I even reached out for his hand. The point i am now .. ive tried the things I believed to be true and not having seen the results i started revisiting and revising my approach. hence the running emphasis when i had never run before etc.  I think i still have his old posts of what he wanted me to do at the time (sprint focus) and i just didn't wanna change up focus from squatting. btw squatting never went anywhere until i started doing daily squatting and i would never have done that either.

That leads me to another strand, if daily squatting works so well .. what can i do for daily training the upper body? Im not goign to be able to do it now i don't think but at some point. Daily dips? Daily curls? Which exercise? Pushups?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:57:07 pm by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism - summer 19
« Reply #4632 on: January 11, 2019, 11:01:26 pm »
0
Bodyweight(AM): 85.1kg (12 Jan)
Diet compliance: 0/0 days
Daily Squat: 56/56 days
Daily Run: 56/56 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:
  


Noon:
   

Evening:
   


Notes:
  • Ate 3 slices of pizza last night so restart the diet counter. TBH it's really hard to eat enough to recover from my huge training load, 100% clean but still let me be honest with my logging

i ate ~2,500 kcal of milk chocolate almonds today.

lol. if i had any junk food i prob would eat it too. chocolate almonds are just great though. my sister brought some Haigh's from adelaide when she last visited and i ate the entire thing. They have really great rocky road too which I always look forward to but it's seasonal. In general,  just try to stay away cos i know myself too well. The other night i went to watch a movie with my brotehr and i ate an entire large poporn and a bag of maltesers. We were sharing but he'll have his bit and i end up over-eating cos my appetite is endless.  Not good. So much salt.

This was a summary of what i ate after bball last night:
- 2 mcdoubles (just cos i knew i wouldn't get enough protein) on drive home
- like 2 cups of chicken breast worth of chicken curry
- 2 cups rice
- 4 roti + 1 cup dhal
- 1 cup  allu methi (potato fenugreek)
- 150mL egg white
- 2 scoops whey
- 250mL reduced fat milk
- a mango
- 3 slices of pizza
- 1 diet pepsi

i think that's the lot
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 11:05:41 pm by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4633 on: January 12, 2019, 10:19:54 am »
+3
Pickup was good. I got my first big block today .. which is usually a good sign my timing is coming back. Not sure it's ever happened just start of week 2 of restarting bball so that was cool. I still haven't tried dunking but i don't want to be a dunker anymore .. want to be respected for my game not some parlour trick i can happen to do because i squat way too much and it's only a 22" inch jump to touch the rim. I may do a dunk session at some point but right now just getting back in shape is priority #1.
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adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4634 on: January 12, 2019, 08:03:15 pm »
0
there's no way you won't get above 160 SPM on a 200m sprint.

Guess i'd have to find out! Morning run step freq was 151 today btw (that's just for the last 4km, the first km was just a warmup at v. slow speed and i didn't start the watch until end of warmup). I was checking it intermittently and it was around 155 .. but i think i must have had periods where it dropped below 150 to average 151. That would be super interesting to track, step freq thru the entire run.

Quote
Quote
I really regret not taking up todday's offer to train with him back when i was in LA.

yup. :derp:

Dont think i was willing to receive the advice i needed at that time. To be clear if i had got it from him personally i probably would have embraced it but the whole thing about the teacher and the glass full thing applied, i hadn't emptied my glass at that point. And that's what I needed before I even reached out for his hand. The point i am now .. ive tried the things I believed to be true and not having seen the results i started revisiting and revising my approach. hence the running emphasis when i had never run before etc.  I think i still have his old posts of what he wanted me to do at the time (sprint focus) and i just didn't wanna change up focus from squatting. btw squatting never went anywhere until i started doing daily squatting and i would never have done that either.

i def understand the "glass not empty yet" concept.

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That leads me to another strand, if daily squatting works so well .. what can i do for daily training the upper body? Im not goign to be able to do it now i don't think but at some point. Daily dips? Daily curls? Which exercise? Pushups?

daily calisthenics (unloaded) or alternating daily push/pull resistance training.

upper isn't meant for "daily pounding" like lower is, and has smaller muscles. can't train it with heavy external resistance daily like the lower body, IMHO.

can def alternate push/pull tho, with rest days inserted as needed.

if you walked on your hands you'd be able to do daily overhead press, etc. that's my perspective on it.

if you did daily bodyweight stuff, you'd still need to use a variety of exercises. ie pushups/pullups one day, dips/chinups the other.

my 2 cents.

pc!